Majority Support Banning the Consideration of Race During College Admissions: Poll

[Flelm]

What we're talking about is the racism of diminished expectations.  It all starts with a liberal assumption that certain races are inferior and need an unfair advantage.

Please don't straw man, that's not the assumption. The assumption is that, taken from a macro view, and looking at entire population trends, different races have different starting points when accessing education, especially in the US. If you directly compare two students of two different races, that will likely not be true. And taking race into account for college admittance isn't a perfect solution. But just because it's not a perfect solution doesn't mean we should throw it away until we can implement the perfect solution.

[ifomonay]

This article isn't about graduate programs. It should be in a different forum.

I totally agree. Either move it to misc. Or delete the thread altogether. It's too political.

[Maniac Craniac]

What we're talking about is the racism of diminished expectations.  It all starts with a liberal assumption that certain races are inferior and need an unfair advantage.

Please don't straw man, that's not the assumption. The assumption is that, taken from a macro view, and looking at entire population trends, different races have different starting points when accessing education, especially in the US. If you directly compare two students of two different races, that will likely not be true. And taking race into account for college admittance isn't a perfect solution. But just because it's not a perfect solution doesn't mean we should throw it away until we can implement the perfect solution.

It's not the overt assumption, but it's the practical result. By using race as an admissions criteria, you effectively artificially inflate every single grade that has ever been achieved by a student. You rob them of their ability to have their accomplishments stand on their own merits.You handicap them by conditioning them to think with an external locus of control.

Affirmative action is only effective at white washing the problems it purports to resolve. Further, it's creepily manipulative. No matter how bad the problem at hand, the existence of a bunch of people exerting institutional power aiming to deliberately restructure society at large sounds like a very, very bad idea to me.

[LevelUP]

If we go back to 1960, you'll see that less than 8% of the entire population had a college degree
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1842...in-the-us/


Today 30% of blacks have a college degree
https://edtrust.org/resource/national-an...n-and-men/

[carrythenothing]

If we go back to 1960, you'll see that less than 8% of the entire population had a college degree
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1842...in-the-us/


Today 30% of blacks have a college degree
https://edtrust.org/resource/national-an...n-and-men/

What is the juxtaposition of these two statistics supposed to suggest? Probably more important to consider this statistic from that second link:

National data on attainment by race and gender reveals significant gaps between Black and White women and men: There’s a 15 percentage point gap between Black and White women and an 18 percentage point gap between Black and White men.

[LevelUP]

If we go back to 1960, you'll see that less than 8% of the entire population had a college degree
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1842...in-the-us/


Today 30% of blacks have a college degree
https://edtrust.org/resource/national-an...n-and-men/

What is the juxtaposition of these two statistics supposed to suggest? Probably more important to consider this statistic from that second link:

National data on attainment by race and gender reveals significant gaps between Black and White women and men: There’s a 15 percentage point gap between Black and White women and an 18 percentage point gap between Black and White men.

It's important to note just how far we come from 1960. College used to be only for the elites.

The trend for everyone getting college degrees will likely go up in the next decade.

Another thing to consider is there is no federal law stopping these colleges from accepting everyone that applies.

They could lower their standards to nothing however, at some point, it may do more harm than good if dropout rates increase substantially.

There are two core beliefs people seem to have:
1. Equality of outcomes
2. Equality of opportunities

I believe in equality of opportunities

All this discrimination is all fun and games until you are the one being discriminated against, which is the case primarily for Asians. 

Why a student pretended to be black to get into med school

https://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kali...-be-black/

[freeloader]

There are two core beliefs people seem to have:
1. Equality of outcomes
2. Equality of opportunities

I believe in equality of opportunities

I find this idea very interesting. This is something that I have heard stated quite frequently by conservatives. I have almost never heard the other position, advocacy for equality of outcomes. To be sure, there are many on the left who bemoan the wide gulfs in wealth, education, and health between those in the dominant groups and those in historically disadvantaged groups, but I genuinely don’t believe I have ever heard it go so far as to advocate for equality of outcomes. The one exception might be for pay equity for identical work, but, it strikes me that this should be universally accepted by people who aren’t racist, sexist, etc. All of that to say, I think this argument is, to borrow a line from the great Orange leader, a big nothing burger. It is a rhetorical tool used by many on the right to make themselves appear superior to those who hold a position that, practically speaking, doesn’t exist. It certainly isn’t universally or widely held my the majority of people who would describe themselves as Democrats, liberals, progressives, at least based on everything I have seen and read. 

My second objection to this is that people who make this claim often want anything but equality of opportunity.  The people who make these claims also seem quite often to oppose things like adequate funding for education. They often seem to oppose bussing and the drawing of school zoning lines in ways which bring poorer students and students of color into richer and more white school zones and the zoning of richer and whiter students into school in poorer and more diverse neighborhoods. They often seem to oppose raising taxes to make college education more affordable. They often seem to support vouchers and similar programs which serve to siphon money and motivated students out of public education. 

I suppose there is some intellectual honesty in the position espoused by many on the right that they support equality of opportunity. If nobody has any opportunity for success in a “government school”, then everybody has the same opportunity. The rich kids have the opportunity to attend the same shitty public schools but don’t have to by virtue of being rich. 

I believe emphatically in equality of opportunity. I believe our schools, all of them, should have the resources to make it possible for every student to complete each grade level with skills appropriate to that grade. If that means that poorer schools and schools with more students of color end up needing more resources, I believe they should receive those resources. I believe public colleges and universities should be affordable for any student who is smart enough and accomplished enough to attend. I believe no student should have to look at college as something that people “from my neighborhood don’t do” and to have that grounded largely in finances. And I believe that we should have a more equitable tax system that provides the money necessary to actually provide equality of opportunity.  

What passes for so many on the right as “equality of opportunity” is, in my opinion, nothing of the sort. It is prioritization of inequality of outcome and policies which are designed to ensure that.  Stated somewhat differently, the opposite of equality of opportunity is not equality of outcome. The the opposite of equality of opportunity is inequality of opportunity.

[LevelUP]

The pros and cons of equality of outcomes and equality of opportunities

There are pros and cons to both equality of outcomes and equality of opportunities. Equality of outcomes is the idea that everyone should have the same results, regardless of their circumstances. Equality of opportunities is the idea that everyone should have the same chance to succeed, regardless of their circumstances.

Equality of outcomes is sometimes seen as unfair, because it doesn't take into account people's different abilities or effort levels. For example, two people could have very different skillsets, but if they both receive the same outcome, it wouldn't be fair.

Equality of opportunities is sometimes seen as more fair, because it gives everyone the same chance to succeed. However, it can be difficult to ensure that everyone has the same opportunities, especially if some people come from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Ultimately, there is no easy answer as to which is better. It depends on the situation and what people think is most important.

[SweetSecret]

This thread should remain on the forum, because someone doing legislative or advocacy work may someday wander across it and get a worthwhile idea.

Mostly, I am just waiting for a certain member that I have respect for to comment because she has a lot of room to talk on the subject and we allies should hold space for those who should be speaking on the relevant topics.