My youngest is officially a college student, and stupid crap guidance couselors say..

[rebel100]

In a bit of a whirlwind my youngest (15) became a dual enrolled college student yesterday. I had to take off work early to run her down for placement testing, it took longer than expected but she placed exactly where we thought she would. Very high in reading, strong competency in writing, and a little short in math. With scores in hand we rushed to the guidance office with only a few minutes before closing.

We handed over the scores and expressed a desire to get her registered (they are two days into registration and classes fill up fast). The "counselor" took her form, highlighted the scores, and pushed the paper back at us with a big encouraging grin and said that she had done so well on the first two parts...but then the grin turned to a frowny face as she explained that she was sorry but a re-test would be required in thirsty days to see if she could get the math scores up. She wasn't going to let us register. What??? Of course, since I generally know the guidelines better than they do, I set about explaining that she could enroll in anything not requiring a math pre-req. She turned to a colleague who verified my argument and we managed to get registered (and the staff did a great job of getting it done before they closed). But I left wondering how many kids had walked away from that desk with a new failure on their mind due to bad information. Very frustrating system.

If this wasn't essentially "free" I would have the kid test out at COSC or TESC.

Then after our 4 hour registration testing odyssey last night this little jewel pops up on my yahoo feed Are remedial courses actually hurting community college students? - The Washington Post An interesting tidbit from that article: "A richly detailed new book on strategies for community college improvement — “Redesigning America’s Community Colleges” — argues that the admissions system should get students into for-credit courses as soon as possible. Instead, the book says, the system (placement exams) “has an opposite purpose: to identify some group of students who will be kept out of a college-level program of study, or whose entry will at least be delayed.”

Study the options. My kid will likely never take the math placement again. Why subject her to that when she could probably pass the CLEP College Math now, and knowing that with say another year with ALEKS she should pass the CLEP Algebra without a second thought. The system is geared to the lowest common denominator and the administration is using it as a cash cow. I'm further struck by the differences to the approach to mathematics. Harvard Extension for example only requires a single "quantitative reasoning" course. Several options to fill that requirement exist that I feel are arguably easier than any CC algebra course. HES is not unusual, many schools, even among the elites, have similar lax math requirements. I don't suspect the graduates from these schools are having a very tough time utilizing their degrees and making the most of their education.

At any rate, she is all signed up, hopefully no more drama till spring registration and with a little luck there won't be much trouble then....though there is always something it seems!

[cookderosa]

You know I'm not surprised. In fairness, they should know their jobs. But, in reality, anyone who spends the kind of time we do here immersed in all things education will obviously be smarter than the average bear when it comes to edu-policy. I spent some time "helping" our dual enrollment coordinator in May because there were some errors in the printed material they sent out to students - specifically calling some courses "transfer" when they were non-transfer. One of my frustrations is having worked in the CC system, because I'm sure people hear me say "don't assume they know" and they think that is unique to the school I worked for. Of course, it isn't, because these workers are human employees who (presumably) go home and immerse themselves in un-education related hobbies lol. Most people don't bother to learn a system, they just learn their job, and sometimes they get it wrong...but those little mistakes can add a year to a degree plan. Buyer beware.

So, I rant endlessly on developmental courses. I won't hop onto that soapbox today, I was just up there yesterday over on FB lol.

Glad your girlie got all squared away.

[LaterBloomer]

At the end of my freshman year at a B&M over 30 years ago, the counselor asked me why I had taken Freshman English. "Well, because I have to have it to graduate," I said. "Actually, with your SAT score you would have been exempt." (I'm not sure that that was in the college catalog, but it might have been an unwritten rule.) Since the school had any warm body advising in-coming Freshman, I'm not surprised that I didn't get the best info.

One of the many benefits of this forum is learning from others.

[rebel100]

It just aggravates me that had we been less informed she would have walked away feeling like a failure. And had she taken the advisers word for it there would have been a mad summer full of remedial math only to watch most classes fill and run the risk of not making the grade even after the retake. Fact is that the Kid smoked the college english/comprehension portions and should be lauded for that achievement. This particular school has a huge (and growing) dual enrollment program and even an accelerated on campus high school. They shouldn't have to make up or guess at the rules.

LB: that sounds about right, you cant register till you see an adviser...but then the advice is questionable at best. Sorry you had to take extra courses.

[sanantone]

This is not specific to your daughter's situation because that's more of an advisement issue rather than an issue with remedial courses and placement tests.

We mainly have three options when it comes to dealing with students who aren't college-ready:

1. Don't admit them to academic programs and steer them to vo-tech programs. This is what they do in some European countries.
2. Offer them remedial courses. Many will give up if they can't get through the remedial courses, but that means that they wouldn't have gotten through many of the college-level courses either.
3. Stick them in college-level courses so that they can sink or swim. This is what many for-profit and non-profit, open admissions colleges do often resulting in high dropout rates.

College graduates in many other developed nations are graduating with better math and writing skills. They are increasing their standards while we settle for mediocrity. From my experience, passing English I makes a huge difference. I took community college courses that did not require English I and other courses that did. The reading level of some of the CJ students was so bad that they couldn't even follow the written directions given by the instructor. We had discussion board assignments where some of the students' initial responses weren't even on topic and could barely be understood. This stifles the academic stimulation students should receive from their classmates. The students who could read at least at the high school level were being done a disservice by having their education hampered by students who weren't prepared.

[rebel100]

My problem is that the folks tasked with guidance don't know what they are doing. I wish this was the first time we've had an issue like this but it isn't. I get that admitting remedial students can impact the education of others, so perhaps they are a required evil...but know what you're going to do with the results. Had this mistake not been caught it might have resulted in a couple thousand dollars worth of expense plus the aftermath of a perceived failure.

I do suppose that at some point college just isn't for everyone. Which knuckleheads get to make those "guidance" decisions?

[Prloko]

You know, the abbreviated title you see for this thread on the forum is "My youngest is officially a college student, and stupid"

I was wondering, man why so harsh??

Then I opened it and saw the rest of the title..

[rebel100]

You know, the abbreviated title you see for this thread on the forum is "My youngest is officially a college student, and stupid"

I was wondering, man why so harsh??

Then I opened it and saw the rest of the title..

I won't show her...

[sanantone]

My problem is that the folks tasked with guidance don't know what they are doing. I wish this was the first time we've had an issue like this but it isn't. I get that admitting remedial students can impact the education of others, so perhaps they are a required evil...but know what you're going to do with the results. Had this mistake not been caught it might have resulted in a couple thousand dollars worth of expense plus the aftermath of a perceived failure.

I do suppose that at some point college just isn't for everyone. Which knuckleheads get to make those "guidance" decisions?

I did have an awful experience when trying to enroll at Palo Alto College, part of the Alamo Community College District. I was trying to enroll in the middle of the fall, which one can do since they have 8-week courses. I was required to meet with a counselor before enrolling. The one counselor who was available took a look at a sheet of paper that was supposed to list all of the online courses offered by the college, which it didn't. He said there wasn't anything I could take. He was just all around rude and short with me and said he didn't think the Alamo Community Colleges could help me toward my goal of getting a bachelor's because I already had a lot of credits from two 4-year schools. I knew what I was doing. I needed more subject area credits to transfer. Most of my other credits were gen ed or business, and I wasn't majoring in business. I looked at the course schedule online when I got home and found that there were several online courses I could take at Palo Alto, and being an ACCD student, I could also take online courses at three of the other ACCD schools.

I went back for a second counseling session and specifically asked not to meet with that man. The lady I met with was nicer and more knowledgeable. I told her about my bad experience with the other counselor, and she said he's received many complaints. Well, they need to counsel, discipline, or fire him. I know some students need these counseling sessions when attending a school for the first time, but I didn't. I would have been fine with enrolling myself for the first time. All I needed was an evaluation which took them a school year to complete.

[Prloko]

I did have an awful experience when trying to enroll at Palo Alto College, part of the Alamo Community College District. I was trying to enroll in the middle of the fall, which one can do since they have 8-week courses. I was required to meet with a counselor before enrolling. The one counselor who was available took a look at a sheet of paper that was supposed to list all of the online courses offered by the college, which it didn't. He said there wasn't anything I could take. He was just all around rude and short with me and said he didn't think the Alamo Community Colleges could help me toward my goal of getting a bachelor's because I already had a lot of credits from two 4-year schools. I knew what I was doing. I needed more subject area credits to transfer. Most of my other credits were gen ed or business, and I wasn't majoring in business. I looked at the course schedule online when I got home and found that there were several online courses I could take at Palo Alto, and being an ACCD student, I could also take online courses at three of the other ACCD schools.

I went back for a second counseling session and specifically asked not to meet with that man. The lady I met with was nicer and more knowledgeable. I told her about my bad experience with the other counselor, and she said he's received many complaints. Well, they need to counsel, discipline, or fire him. I know some students need these counseling sessions when attending a school for the first time, but I didn't. I would have been fine with enrolling myself for the first time. All I needed was an evaluation which took them a school year to complete.

Like Jennifer already alluded to, we're so accustomed to doing our own research and finding "angles" that we tend to become more knowledgeable then the staff. We'll read the catalog back and forth and then do additional research to find that hidden nugget, the counselor just want a paycheck and a pension.

Regardless, there is never a time to be rude. He is unprofessional and that is uncalled for.