Survey says: Most "full time" students aren't.

[Notgodot]

In a recent survey conducted for Complete College America, we asked state systems and individual institutions to break down their full- and part-time enrollments in more detail. In all, we collected data on students’ fall course loads at 329 institutions in 30 states, covering 158 public two-year colleges, and 171 public four-year institutions. Key findings include:
• Most college students (69%) were not enrolled in a schedule that would lead to on-time graduation, even if they never changed majors, failed a course, or took a class they didn’t need
• Even among “full-time” students, most (52%) were actually taking fewer than 15 hours, the standard course load that could lead to on-time graduation
• At most two-year colleges, less than a third of “full-time” students were taking 15 or more hours
• At four-year colleges, typically only 50% or fewer “full-time” students were enrolled in 15 hours

http://completecollege.org/pdfs/2013-10-...l-time.pdf

Interesting. Nowadays, a four year degree really isn't, for the majority.

[cookderosa]

My first Homeschooling for College Credit public presentation was in 2013, and the data I used for that Power Point already listed the average 4 year degree taking 6 years. When I updated my numbers last year, it was higher, 6-something. Just under 7.

Colleges tell students to take 12. It's in almost every document you'll ever read- it's "considered" full time by almost every measure, academic and financial. Technically speaking, you don't have to take 15 to graduate in 4 years, but if you don't, you have to take a summer session.
So, really there are 2 options:
15+15+0
or
12+12+6

I think where students mess up is doing 12+12+0 which means 120 credits will take 5 years if executed perfectly (no changes, no extras, no fails, courses are all available when needed).

EDIT to add: some students use their summer for internships, travel, volunteer work, etc. so it's not "wrong" but I think students underestimate just HOW LONG 5-6 years is. My favorite line from Tommy Boy "a lot of people go to college for 7 years.....yeah, they're called DOCTORS!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOsQ2epsI2M

[dfrecore]

My first Homeschooling for College Credit public presentation was in 2013, and the data I used for that Power Point already listed the average 4 year degree taking 6 years. When I updated my numbers last year, it was higher, 6-something. Just under 7.

Colleges tell students to take 12. It's in almost every document you'll ever read- it's "considered" full time by almost every measure, academic and financial. Technically speaking, you don't have to take 15 to graduate in 4 years, but if you don't, you have to take a summer session.
So, really there are 2 options:
15+15+0
or
12+12+6

I think where students mess up is doing 12+12+0 which means 120 credits will take 5 years if executed perfectly (no changes, no extras, no fails, courses are all available when needed).

EDIT to add: some students use their summer for internships, travel, volunteer work, etc. so it's not "wrong" but I think students underestimate just HOW LONG 5-6 years is. My favorite line from Tommy Boy "a lot of people go to college for 7 years.....yeah, they're called DOCTORS!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOsQ2epsI2M

I am definitely not shocked to hear that it's more than 4 years.

One of the things that happened here in CA was that the CSU system became impacted. Which meant that many students, especially freshman & sophomores, couldn't get the classes they needed to graduate in 4 years (assuming that they wanted to take 15cr). The classes were just full all the time. Although it took a while for them to catch up, CSU started accepting CLEP, then later started accepting DSST. Again, it was a long time problem and they only in the last few years came up with a CSU system-wide acceptance policy, but at least they came up with it. Each college can choose to take the recommendations or not, but I think almost every CSU school takes some of the CLEP/DSST exams.

[ladylearner]

I am definitely not shocked to hear that it's more than 4 years.

One of the things that happened here in CA was that the CSU system became impacted. Which meant that many students, especially freshman & sophomores, couldn't get the classes they needed to graduate in 4 years (assuming that they wanted to take 15cr). The classes were just full all the time. Although it took a while for them to catch up, CSU started accepting CLEP, then later started accepting DSST. Again, it was a long time problem and they only in the last few years came up with a CSU system-wide acceptance policy, but at least they came up with it. Each college can choose to take the recommendations or not, but I think almost every CSU school takes some of the CLEP/DSST exams.

I'm not shocked either. The City University of New York (CUNY) system boasts in its subway ad that the majority (I forgot the statistic but will post the next time I see the ad or if I find the info online) graduate without student debt. But the ad doesn't mention just how long it takes to get a degree in the system. With the exception of those enrolled in highly specialized programs like the pre-med program at City College, it just isn't feasible. That's largely because it's a great, affordable education but with a ton of students. And those students with a lower number of credits under their belts often have to wait around to get the prerequisites and other requirements they need. CUNY schools are often known to be stingy with transfer credit from schools outside their own university system. I think traditional college students need to be more aware of alternative means for getting college credits. They might be able to use their time toward accumulating credits and be in a better position to fulfill their prerequisites and other requirements. There is one program that allows students to take classes at any of the CUNY colleges and use nontraditional credits but this doesn't seem to be widely advertised.

This is just what I've seen and experienced here. I suspect there might be similar occurrences in other parts of the country.

[ladylearner]

My first Homeschooling for College Credit public presentation was in 2013, and the data I used for that Power Point already listed the average 4 year degree taking 6 years. When I updated my numbers last year, it was higher, 6-something. Just under 7.

Colleges tell students to take 12. It's in almost every document you'll ever read- it's "considered" full time by almost every measure, academic and financial. Technically speaking, you don't have to take 15 to graduate in 4 years, but if you don't, you have to take a summer session.
So, really there are 2 options:
15+15+0
or
12+12+6

I think where students mess up is doing 12+12+0 which means 120 credits will take 5 years if executed perfectly (no changes, no extras, no fails, courses are all available when needed).

EDIT to add: some students use their summer for internships, travel, volunteer work, etc. so it's not "wrong" but I think students underestimate just HOW LONG 5-6 years is. My favorite line from Tommy Boy "a lot of people go to college for 7 years.....yeah, they're called DOCTORS!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOsQ2epsI2M

I think you're right that many young students don't realize that they will be in their mid-20s when they graduate. And unless you're pursuing graduate education, most people want to be moving on to the next stage in their lives rather than still being a full-time student. My niece has been in a CUNY college full-time for 4 years and is a presidential scholar with a 4.0 GPA. She was accepted into one of the highly selective CUNY nursing programs but still doesn't have a college degree. So now she will in nursing school for 2 years. The community college programs are just as hard to get into so I can't even say that would have been a better alternative to get a nursing career started. I wish I had known about CLEP when she was getting started. I definitely would have advised her to pursue that route.

[cookderosa]

I think you're right that many young students don't realize that they will be in their mid-20s when they graduate. And unless you're pursuing graduate education, most people want to be moving on to the next stage in their lives rather than still being a full-time student. My niece has been in a CUNY college full-time for 4 years and is a presidential scholar with a 4.0 GPA. She was accepted into one of the highly selective CUNY nursing programs but still doesn't have a college degree. So now she will in nursing school for 2 years. The community college programs are just as hard to get into so I can't even say that would have been a better alternative to get a nursing career started. I wish I had known about CLEP when she was getting started. I definitely would have advised her to pursue that route.

This, imo, is an argument against the BSN as the initial RN path, but that's for another thread lol. But even at the community college, the pre-reqs turn an ADN/AA/AS into a 3 year program in almost every case. The days of allowing the nursing student to do their gen eds inside the program are fading. Time and time again you'll see that the gen eds are used as admission criteria, which is why so many pre-nursing students don't use CLEP (no GPA points).

[dfrecore]

This, imo, is an argument against the BSN as the initial RN path, but that's for another thread lol. But even at the community college, the pre-reqs turn an ADN/AA/AS into a 3 year program in almost every case. The days of allowing the nursing student to do their gen eds inside the program are fading. Time and time again you'll see that the gen eds are used as admission criteria, which is why so many pre-nursing students don't use CLEP (no GPA points).

Yes, it is the same way here. There are specific courses that an RN student needs before they can even apply to the program, and they need a very high GPA to get in. They don't need an AA, but by the time they take those specific courses, they are pretty close to one anyway - not sure if they decide to go for it and get one, or if they just decide to get into the RN program. BTW - our RN program is so cheap here (less than $5,000 start to finish for the RN portion) that it is extremely competitive to get into it, because the ROI is so good.

[clep3705]

AP and CLEP are great ways for the brick and mortar student to graduate in 4 years. Unfortunately some brick and mortar students not in AP classes think the AP tests aren't for them. I tell parents of kids going to large state universities that graduation in 4 years is easily attainable by passing CLEP and AP to offset the semesters where only 12 hours were taken.

As far as nursing goes, if you live in a geographic area with only ADN, it's fine. But if you live in a big metroplex with ADN and BSN programs, BSN is the better choice. It's not just about credits and GPAs. It's about getting the best clinical experiences possible. The large Magnet status hospitals want BSN students, not ADN students. They aren't going to train nurses that they aren't going to hire. When there is competition for scarce clinical placements, the ADN students get stuck with subpar clinical experiences in long term care facilities and small hospitals without advanced oncology, cardiovascular care, and level 1 trauma. If you get subpar clinical experiences in an ADN program, getting an RN to BSN degree later isn't going to fix that. You're not going to get additional clinical experiences in an RN to BSN program (there could be so rare exceptions). Get a BSN from a school affiliated with major hospitals. Go to allnurses.com and see how important the clinical education piece is.