Free community college for everyone? We can all be Aric Hall!

[Yanji]

My wife (a Canuck) says that college is pretty expensive in Canada. She also says that salaries tend to be higher in Canada which makes paying for an education easier. Her nursing program in Canada would have cost her easily over $40,000 and it will cost her in the US around $13,000. It really depends, but from visiting Canada, EVERYTHING is more expensive there. An 18 pack of beer will cost you $50.00.

I'm also a Canadian citizen and while I lived most of my life in Britain, I know that tuition at public institutions (private institutions are practically non-existent), undergraduate tuition is usually under $8k/yr, which is somewhat lower than in-state tuition at most public schools in the US, and significantly lower than many flagship state schools. Of course, you're right that salaries are somewhat higher in Canada and everything is also more expensive, but Canadian community colleges tend to charge similar tuition as universities, which is a big difference from the US. So while it is impossible to easily compare the two systems, my point was that looking at the 34 OECD countries as a proxy for the developed world, the country that happens to have the most educated adult population happens to be one that does not have free higher education, under the assumption that graduation rates are a good proxy for accessibility.

If I had to pick an education system to have the most technically skilled workforce, I think the German system is more of a model than the Canadian system. I guess it depends on what balance a country wants to have between using education to increase economic productivity and enlightening the citizenry.

[SwaggyP]

In California you only need an AA to teach Early Childhood Education (Pre-School). If you have an AA in Child Development, you can get the California Child Development permit from the state. Getting a BA in that field won't do much to improve pay because it's pretty low and whether you have a BA or AA you get the same teaching permit. To be a regular Elementary teacher is a whole different thing though and requires a BA with heavy duty credential work done. I almost major Child Development as a returning student. In fact I cancelled out my classes two weeks back as I saw it really wouldn't lead me anywhere. In Nevada to be a substitute teacher you only need an AA degree in anything but can't sub teach with anything lower than an AA/AS. In California it's a BA to sub teach. So some careers you only need an AA and a BA isn't required or isn't worth the added costs. If you want to be an office manager of a school you really only need an AA in something office like. Business Admin, Admin Assistant. The pay is fair, but not great. But a lot of married women work those positions so they have two incomes coming in.

Precisely what I mean when saying CC serves a unique purpose. AA in Early Childhood Education and degrees of that sort are exactly what CC's should excel at; it is worthwhile and specialized enough that if one attains the credential, they can attain a job and if they choose, make a career out of it without the need for even higher education. In contrast, the vast majority of students in CC choose degree programs which will ultimately require the 4 year pedigree to achieve optimal results (career opportunities / higher wages / jobs in their field of study).

[cookderosa]

Is cost a barrier to community college attendance? Has Obama asked that question? He should ask here.

It would take members of this forum about 17 minutes to create an associate degree plan that any random person can complete for under $2000. That's without a Pell Grant. Pell Grant makes that deal a money maker.

The cost barrier isn't in earning an associate's degree, it's earning upper level and graduate credit. Anyone who doesn't START with that premise doesn't know enough about education to garner my enthusiasm.

[topdog98]

"Free" public education for K-12 now costs taxpayers on average over $12,000 per student per year. I agree that the cost of community college will increase once it is "free" and completely paid for by taxes.

[smf6824]

This is just a political tactic that he is utilizing to get voters excited and on his party's side. There are several other ways to reduce the cost of higher education and the government knows that; however, they just want to play with your emotions for a while. Unless he comes up with a cost efficient way to get this done congress won't allow it, though the president is very good at exceeding his authority and the power of the executive branch. Personally lets look at reducing the costs of 4 year institutions or helping those with significant student debt. Also lets fix the cost of health insurance since that is rising significantly (My health insurance rates tripled this year and benefits are worse). Mind you I am neither a republican or democrat, honestly. This forum is about education and I am a big promoter of education, I just want the government to put their education to use and start using common sense.

[bluebooger]

Is cost a barrier to community college attendance? Has Obama asked that question? He should ask here.

It would take members of this forum about 17 minutes to create an associate degree plan that any random person can complete for under $2000. That's without a Pell Grant. Pell Grant makes that deal a money maker.

The cost barrier isn't in earning an associate's degree, it's earning upper level and graduate credit. Anyone who doesn't START with that premise doesn't know enough about education to garner my enthusiasm.

I don't believe that for a second

I highly doubt most random people have the discipline to study on their own

the people on this forum are not random
the very fact that we're here shows we're different

pick a person at random,
tell them to watch Khan Academy videos on biology and study the REA Biology CLEP books
now watch the results

studying on your own is not easy
being disciplined is not easy
many people need a structured environment
they need to go to class 2 or 3 times a week
they need a syllabus
they need a teacher to tell them what to do and when to do it

the average person picked at random is not going to pass the dsst or ece statistics exam

we will, but we are not average

[sanantone]

I'm also a Canadian citizen and while I lived most of my life in Britain, I know that tuition at public institutions (private institutions are practically non-existent), undergraduate tuition is usually under $8k/yr, which is somewhat lower than in-state tuition at most public schools in the US, and significantly lower than many flagship state schools. Of course, you're right that salaries are somewhat higher in Canada and everything is also more expensive, but Canadian community colleges tend to charge similar tuition as universities, which is a big difference from the US. So while it is impossible to easily compare the two systems, my point was that looking at the 34 OECD countries as a proxy for the developed world, the country that happens to have the most educated adult population happens to be one that does not have free higher education, under the assumption that graduation rates are a good proxy for accessibility.

If I had to pick an education system to have the most technically skilled workforce, I think the German system is more of a model than the Canadian system. I guess it depends on what balance a country wants to have between using education to increase economic productivity and enlightening the citizenry.

Canada also has a very small "visible minority" population in comparison to the U.S. I wonder how the numbers would look if one were to compare similar ethnic groups. One of the problems with comparing America's K-12 system with those in other developed nations is that most of these nations are much more homogeneous. When you start comparing like ethnic groups, then our minorities perform the same or better than those in other developed countries.

[videogamesrock]

Another issue we may face with this free CC is seat availability. For example at College of Southern Nevada, every semester there is a seat shortage as Nevada High School graduates tend to have early enrollment versus transfer students. A class may have 30 seats and it gets filled before the next round of students are allowed to enroll. After the first week of class you can see as many as 1/3 drop the course as they are not prepared enough to take these courses. In this instance many of the students who could not get in, wind up taking 100/200 level classes at UNLV which has much higher tuition ($191 a credit last time I checked). The more I think about this, this is a bad deal. Obama would be better off mandating a tuition cap on CC's such as $20-$25 a credit than subsidize (corporate welfare) tuition. This may force the CC's to eliminate some of the bloat in the administrative positions. Also in Nevada CC teachers make over $100,000 a year and I can tell you first hand, most just post assignments online and do not even read many of the them. I looked up one of my Professors and she teaches 3 classes per semester and makes $108,000 a year plus benefits...

My question is will the 5 million illegals who just received amnesty also be allowed to receive free CC? This is leaning more and more to a massive spike in tuition.

Many will not get into CC as it will be filled by lower and middle income, so attendance will increase at the 4 year level. CC's will be maxed out, so the supply will be low and the demand will be high. The higher the demand the higher the prices.

[videogamesrock]

Canada also has a very small "visible minority" population in comparison to the U.S. I wonder how the numbers would look if one were to compare similar ethnic groups. One of the problems with comparing America's K-12 system with those in other developed nations is that most of these nations are much more homogeneous. When you start comparing like ethnic groups, then our minorities perform the same or better than those in other developed countries.

From what I have noticed on the West side of Canada the minorities are East India and Asian and they all seem very educated. Then again most Canadians seem very educated and are very knowledgeable about US current events.

[sanantone]

Another issue we may face with this free CC is seat availability. For example at College of Southern Nevada, every semester there is a seat shortage as Nevada High School graduates tend to have early enrollment versus transfer students. A class may have 30 seats and it gets filled before the next round of students are allowed to enroll. After the first week of class you can see as many as 1/3 drop the course as they are not prepared enough to take these courses. In this instance many of the students who could not get in, wind up taking 100/200 level classes at UNLV which has much higher tuition ($191 a credit last time I checked). The more I think about this, this is a bad deal. Obama would be better off mandating a tuition cap on CC's such as $20-$25 a credit than subsidize (corporate welfare) tuition. This may force the CC's to eliminate some of the bloat in the administrative positions. Also in Nevada CC teachers make over $100,000 a year and I can tell you first hand, most just post assignments online and do not even read many of the them. I looked up one of my Professors and she teaches 3 classes per semester and makes $108,000 a year plus benefits...

My question is will the 5 million illegals who just received amnesty also be allowed to receive free CC? This is leaning more and more to a massive spike in tuition.

Many will not get into CC as it will be filled by lower and middle income, so attendance will increase at the 4 year level. CC's will be maxed out, so the supply will be low and the demand will be high. The higher the demand the higher the prices.

The federal government can provide funding, but it cannot force CCs to cap their tuition. These are locally-operated entities. Why would attendance increase among lower and middle income people when they are already the ones attending CCs for free or nearly free? How many upper class people are trying to attend CCs anyway? I don't think this proposal is meant to help them, and they really don't need the help.

It is only common for certain types of professors to make over six figures. They are usually in tenure-track positions at 4-year colleges and universities and teach law, computer science, accounting, and engineering. Professors at prestigious private universities can make that much, but many professors won't see that much even after teaching for 20+ years. CCs are becoming increasingly reliant on adjunct instructors. Adjuncts make close to fast food wages.

None of my university professors make six figures and some of them have been teaching for more than 30 years. I could make more as a police officer without a degree than a CJ professor with a PhD.