Ethical caution

[Shadowless]

This discussion has been great so far. We've seen many opinions and perspectives, each one passionately and persuasively defended. While everyone makes good points, I'm particularly persuaded by what Pattie and Michael had to say.

The Excelsior College Academic Honesty Policy (https://www.excelsior.edu/Excelsior_Coll...STY_POLICY) specifically prohibits "sharing or selling information about examination questions or content via electronic discussion groups or in any other way by a student." It also says that "students who believe that a student has not adhered to the Academic Honesty Policy will bring the matter to the attention of the appropriate dean or dean’s designee." (Emphasis mine) Luckily, so far I haven't seen an explicit violation by anybody I know to be an Excelsior College student. But I think it's important to understand that this is a public forum, and to understand the possible consequences if an investigation by Excelsior or another school were to find what they judge to be ethical violations here.

Again, to be clear, I am not condemning the whole Exam Feedback thread section. Even though the policy prohibits "sharing ... information about examination ... content" my judgment is that confirming what is in the exam content guides, and discussing exam preparation resources that were more or less helpful is not a violation. I recognize that even my interpretation could be in error, and if that subjects me to a charge of hypocrisy, so be it.

Pattie makes the point that this forum substitutes for the typical interaction among students that goes on at a B&M school, and I agree. The difference, however, is that at a B&M school, everybody takes the exam on or near the same day, so the opportunities for sharing exam information are very much diminished. Even discussing an exam with an upperclassman would not be considered cheating, as you will likely take a very different exam from the one they took. I recognize that not all forms of the CLEP, DSST and ECE exams are the same, and that they change every six months, and that does somewhat mitigate the harmful effect of sharing questions. Nevertheless, sharing questions is clearly and explicitly prohibited, and I don't see any way to dodge that.

Anyway, I wanted to start a discussion, and that's accomplished. Thanks, everybody.

-Gary-

Again, not pointing fingers... But have you used the specific exam feedback forum yourself?

[gcalvin]

Shadowless, to answer your question, I honestly don't remember seeing any actual questions from exams in the feedback threads while I was preparing. I remember being impressed with the way posters walked that thin line -- being helpful, but not breaking the rules. I took my last exam in January (except for the GRE: Psychology in April), so if you can find examples in the threads of exam questions being posted before then, I'll take the rap.

It's hard for me to debate this information because if you (not you personally) are going to ask what is compromise and what is not you are going to run into alot of debate. For example, IC itself, if CLEP or Dante knew about this service I am almost willing to bet it would be shut down.

The instantcert.com site is right there in the Google sponsored links if you search for either "CLEP" or "DSST". It's hard for me to believe that nobody at The College Board or the DANTES program knows about InstantCert.

Clep test itself warns about discussing ANYTHING about the test, and like I have said in another post, IC has several questions that were identical to the questions on the exam. I am sure CLEP and Dante would question where his study material came from to begin with.

That's a separate question, but I have thought about that. I haven't seen any citation of Steve's sources for the flash cards, and I think it would be a good thing if he did cite them. At the same time, I have no reason to believe that they are not his original work. The fact that they cover the same subject matter as the exams is not any sort of ethical violation that I can see. That is the point, after all.

My point is, it's hard to debate was is over board. I agree with the above poster, blantely giving out the question and answers is over board, everything else is fair game. I see no difference between the specific exam feedback forum and the IC study cards.

I agree that it's hard, but I think it's important. If you're saying that providing questions without answers is fair game, I have to disagree. It may be splitting hairs, but it's all a matter of where the information came from. If the IC study cards did indeed come from taking the exams and making physical or mental notes of the questions, then they are a flagrant ehtical violation. I haven't seen any evidence that they were developed in that manner, and my experience with the study cards and the exams makes me quite certain they were not.

-Gary-

[peppamint]

I was glad to see this topic, but did not feel a need to reply - until just now.
gcalvin I agree that good judgement should be used when providing "specific" feedback. I also agree that CLEP, Dantes are well aware of the various websites and forums available to test takers just as Wal-Mart is aware of all those anti-Wal-Mart forums out there. At the risk of getting flamed, booed, spat upon... I just read a different thread where a poster gave very specific information about a portion of a test. So specific in fact that its impossible to infer anything else. I'm not going to repeat it, but its in "today's posts". While I am happy for the test taker who passed, I thought it was pretty poor judgement to give out that information. It is entirely possible that no one will ever see that specific information on a test , but still.

[Shadowless]

Shadowless, to answer your question, I honestly don't remember seeing any actual questions from exams in the feedback threads while I was preparing. I remember being impressed with the way posters walked that thin line -- being helpful, but not breaking the rules. I took my last exam in January (except for the GRE: Psychology in April), so if you can find examples in the threads of exam questions being posted before then, I'll take the rap.

Well I would need to know what tests you have taken to do that.



The instantcert.com site is right there in the Google sponsored links if you search for either "CLEP" or "DSST". It's hard for me to believe that nobody at The College Board or the DANTES program knows about InstantCert.

I am not saying they don't know about it, but are they going to pay the 20 dollars a month to view the flash cards?


That's a separate question, but I have thought about that. I haven't seen any citation of Steve's sources for the flash cards, and I think it would be a good thing if he did cite them. At the same time, I have no reason to believe that they are not his original work. The fact that they cover the same subject matter as the exams is not any sort of ethical violation that I can see. That is the point, after all.

I don't want to point fingers at Steve cause they are great source material. But to say they are his original work?



I agree that it's hard, but I think it's important. If you're saying that providing questions without answers is fair game, I have to disagree. It may be splitting hairs, but it's all a matter of where the information came from. If the IC study cards did indeed come from taking the exams and making physical or mental notes of the questions, then they are a flagrant ehtical violation. I haven't seen any evidence that they were developed in that manner, and my experience with the study cards and the exams makes me quite certain they were not.

I don't think anyone is doing that, no one is saying "this question is on the test!!! study this!" they are giving an idea of what MAY be on the test.

Hope this better explains what I am talking about.

[gcalvin]

I don't think anyone is doing that, no one is saying "this question is on the test!!! study this!" they are giving an idea of what MAY be on the test.

If they're not saying "this question is on the test" then I don't have a problem. (Whether Excelsior or any other school would have a problem is still an open question, though.) I started the thread because I saw some examples of people coming very very close to doing exactly that. When I say "very very close" I don't mean "they came close, but didn't cross the line." I mean something more like "I don't want to think about whether any specific example crossed the line, because I might incur my own ethical obligations by arriving at a judgment." Yeah, that means I'm skating a thin line myself.

Your argument seems to be that all of us -- those who post in the feedback threads, those who read them, and even those who simply use the IC study cards -- are already way over the line and violating the ethics policies, so the less we talk about it, the better. Am I misunderstanding you? While I don't agree, I actually think there is considerable merit to that argument, so I'm not trying to be inflammatory here. I don't want to misstate your views though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

-Gary-

[ShotoJuku]

This is my first post on this forum.

I took my first CLEP exam just over two weeks ago, 11/27/2007. Since then, I have picked up the pace and I now have 60 credits by examination -- halfway to my Excelsior College BS degree. Here are my scores:

11/27 CLEP Humanities -- 79
11/29 CLEP Natural Sciences -- 71
12/01 DSST Management Information Systems -- 65
12/03 ECE Ethics: Theory and Practice -- A
12/04 CLEP Social Sciences and History -- 76
12/04 CLEP American Government -- 72
12/05 CLEP Information Systems and Computer Applications -- 78
12/05 CLEP Introductory Business Law -- 71
12/08 CLEP Principles of Macroeconomics -- 73
12/10 DSST Criminal Justice -- 61
12/10 CLEP College Algebra -- 76
12/10 ECE Statistics -- A
12/11 CLEP Principles of Management -- 76
12/11 CLEP Introductory Sociology -- 72
12/13 DSST Here's to Your Health -- 67
12/13 CLEP Principles of Microeconomics -- 68
12/13 DSST Principles of Supervision -- 67

.......The InstantCert "flashcards" have been helpful for a lot of these exams.....

[COLOR="Navy"]Now I'm really confused??

IC seems to have been very beneficial to you yet here we are talking about how unethical it is......:confused: [/COLOR]

[ShotoJuku]

....(Whether Excelsior or any other school would have a problem is still an open question, though.).... -Gary-

True, but they didn't raise the question - you have. :confused:

[Shadowless]

If they're not saying "this question is on the test" then I don't have a problem. (Whether Excelsior or any other school would have a problem is still an open question, though.) I started the thread because I saw some examples of people coming very very close to doing exactly that. When I say "very very close" I don't mean "they came close, but didn't cross the line." I mean something more like "I don't want to think about whether any specific example crossed the line, because I might incur my own ethical obligations by arriving at a judgment." Yeah, that means I'm skating a thin line myself.

I understand my only issue was, how ironic it was that you made this topic AFTER you used all the exam feedback and the flash cards and finished your studying. That's where I saw it getting fishy.


Your argument seems to be that all of us -- those who post in the feedback threads, those who read them, and even those who simply use the IC study cards -- are already way over the line and violating the ethics policies, so the less we talk about it, the better. Am I misunderstanding you? While I don't agree, I actually think there is considerable merit to that argument, so I'm not trying to be inflammatory here. I don't want to misstate your views though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are pretty close to what I am trying to say, I just didn't understand how you could rationize the flash cards which are the exact same thing as the feedback but were against the feedback forum.

-Gary-

*Shadowless*

[gcalvin]

[COLOR="Navy"]Now I'm really confused??

IC seems to have been very beneficial to you yet here we are talking about how unethical it is......:confused: [/COLOR]

No, Brian, I'm not saying that IC is unethical. I'm saying that posting specific questions seen on exams is clearly in violation of ethics policies. I'm sorry if I haven't been clear about that. Do you disagree?

-Gary-

[bmills072200]

If they're not saying "this question is on the test" then I don't have a problem. (Whether Excelsior or any other school would have a problem is still an open question, though.) I started the thread because I saw some examples of people coming very very close to doing exactly that. When I say "very very close" I don't mean "they came close, but didn't cross the line." I mean something more like "I don't want to think about whether any specific example crossed the line, because I might incur my own ethical obligations by arriving at a judgment." Yeah, that means I'm skating a thin line myself.
-Gary-

Gary - I think the problem here is how you define "divulging information about a test". That can be defined in multiple ways and the CLEP, DSST and ECE people do not make an effort to specify what that means. In the purest sense of the definition of "devulging information about a test", this entire forum would be in violation. Of course I do not belive that was the intent of the statement about giving away test information to others. We have to use some common sense and make a judgement, kind of like the Supreme Court makes judgements all the time about what a specific law or amendment really means on a very specific level.

I interpret, and I think most of those that are writing on this thread in opposition to your thesis that we are coming close if not already crossing the "line", that divulging information about specific exams as stated by CLEP means giving out specific questions AND specific answers to those questions in a flagrant attempt to cheat. I do not see any of that going on in this forum.

I hope that makes sense. It is all about your interpretation, it sounds like you are using a very strict interpretation and others are using a more general, relative interpretation. People are naturally going to get a little bit defensive when we call ethics into question. Don't get me wrong, I think this discussion has been great and somewhat eye-opening, but it is starting to border on self-righteous. That is just my opinion.

Another point, if I was lacking in ethics, I would likely have never choosen to go those route to get my degree. I would have choosen to go the diploma mill route and pulled the wool over an employer's eyes and gotten the job I wanted. I think that is part of the reason that this thread is hitting close to home for a lot of people.

I appreciate all of you. There are multiple people on this forum that have contributed to me getting where I am now and I can't thank everyone enough.