Big three Alternatives?

[MomOfMany]

Great point. I keep thinking about this. Just what IS the point of school? I am an idealist, for sure. I think school can give you something that nothing else can. However, I am at a loss to define it, exactly. If the point was the acquisition of knowledge, then BAH, HUMBUG! Knowledge is easily acquired from the library and from the internet these days. No, there is a lot more to it than that, and a part of it is the work that you put into it.

hmm. I would think it a combination of the two. Knowledge unused is pretty much well useless isn't it? This is why we can appreciate someone who is knowledgable about something, but we appreciate more the person who is knowledgable AND has experince using that knowledge.

For example, I respect the medical knowledge a med student might have acquired. But I'll go with the dr who has had 20 year experience for my surgery if I have any say in the matter.

To me this has nothing to do with school though because the vast majority of the time school does not offer genuine real world experiences. It is a prefabricated simulation at best most of the time and it's flat out embarassing how rare it is for someone who has had real world experience in a field to actually teach it in a school setting.

the exams were so easy and ill-conceived that I could just as easily have passed all of them without any study at all.

...

The problem I have is that these exams are generally so easy that it does not require 20 years, nor even 20 minutes, of experience to walk away with a chunk of credit.

That is one way of looking at it.

Another way of looking at it is if these exams are intended to represent the minimum of what a college student should have attained in these courses - maybe going to college wouldn't have done much better due to low standards in education these days.

Or maybe it just seemed insane easy because you have already attained that 20 years of knowledge and familiarity?

Just some thoughts to ponder...

[Maniac Craniac]

Another way of looking at it is if these exams are intended to represent the minimum of what a college student should have attained in these courses - maybe going to college wouldn't have done much better due to low standards in education these days.

Wow. I didn't even think of that. I really hope that isn't true, but it makes sense. Am I expecting a challenge, when a challenge doesn't actually exist in contemporary education? Arg...

Or maybe it just seemed insane easy because you have already attained that 20 years of knowledge and familiarity?

LOL, I don't believe in reincarnation, so no, that wouldn't be possible.

[jacanyardie]

Wow. I didn't even think of that. I really hope that isn't true, but it makes sense. Am I expecting a challenge, when a challenge doesn't actually exist in contemporary education? Arg...
LOL, I don't believe in reincarnation, so no, that wouldn't be possible.

How old are you......just where you fall ....High teens, or Mid twenties

[MomOfMany]

Wow. I didn't even think of that. I really hope that isn't true, but it makes sense. Am I expecting a challenge, when a challenge doesn't actually exist in contemporary education? Arg...

Makes more sense than you probably know. Between 40 and 70% of high school graduates (our local CC reported 60% last year) have to take remedial courses in basic maths and language arts in college. Obviously, if a student is behind in maths and language arts, they are going to have serious difficulty in all other subjects. This is a fact that college instructors/professors have to take into consideration when developing courses.

There's also the simple fact that most students do not seek an education when they attend schools, they seek a marketable trade. While I see the reasoning behind that, I also think it puts pressure on some colleges to make some courses deemed necessary to graduate, but not neccesarily applicable to most trades, a bit or a lot less rigorous. Often you don't see more rigor until it is considered upper level. And if you look back a decade or so, there were not two levels. They've basically made two courses to accommodate the requirement for student who can't hack it as a full course, but need the credits.

[rubbersoul]

Case 1:
Way back in the early 90s I took Freshman English Comp. We had to write several papers for the class. My professor was a grumpy old Englishman who had one foot already out the door to retire. He graded these papers not on sentence structure or proper English, but on opinion. I was lucky to pull a C on any paper, and on each paper that he handed back he included his opinion on the topic of the paper. Finally fed up, I dropped the course at the deadline. I took it again the following semester with a different professor and turned in the identical papers (just reprinted them). I got an A in the class. How is this show that I learned anything from taking the class?

Case 2:
I have taken many classes that grade heavily on class participation and attendance. In addition, they assign reading textbook chapters as the only homework. Often times there were multiple choice pop quizzes and the mid-term and final were the old fashioned fill in the bubble multiple choice. Essentially these classes are nothing more than a CLEP/DSST that is spread out over a semester. Does being graded on attendance and class participation really mean you learn more in a class like this then studying on your own and taking a DSST/CLEP exam?


I believe it is important to continue to learn. Not just in school, but in your everyday life. Proving that you can learn in a structured environment such as a classroom to me is not as impressive as having the discipline to study on your own. I just don’t believe that the amount of time and money you spend sitting in a classroom day after day equals the amount of knowledge you get out of it.

There are exceptions however. I wouldn’t want to be operated on by a doctor that tested out of a medical degree. I would certainly choose a lawyer out of Harvard than one from a self study program. But a computer programmer fresh out of college with a computer science degree in my view is no more knowledgeable than someone that has been in the field much longer or was in the military and has certifications. If anything, the knowledge that they gained in the classroom has become obsolete by the time they graduate.

[wb.john]

This whole idea of testing out of an entire degree is pretty ridiculous. These tests have their place, and some of them do exactly what they claim to do, even if most don't. However, I think that a completely multiple-choice degree kills the credibility of what would otherwise be a great service from the Big 3. Knowledge* and education are not synonyms. School isn't about what you know, but about the work that you put into your studies. It disappoints me to see the statement made that passing a CLEP is the equivalent to passing a course. Sure the credits are the same, but do you REALLY gain as much out of clicking a few answers on a single test (a multiple-choice test, where the answer is actually GIVEN to you) as you would by doing dozens of hours of research, writing dozens of pages of papers, or doing hundreds of paper and pencil problems?

*Especially when that knowledge is often completely lost within just a few days of passing an exam.

I'm testing out of my entire degree, or at least that is the plan. I don't see it as ridiculous. I agree that CLEP and DANTES exams don't represent much of a challenge. The minimum scores are, however, based on the scores achieved by students who actually took the course. My degree also requires a foreign language exam (Indonesian) as well as the GRE math subject exam. Neither of these can be crammed overnight and then forgotten the day after.

You asked if one gains as much from taking an exam as they would from completing typical course assignments. Of course one gains nothing from taking an exam, but one can gain just as much studying for said exam. It doesn't really matter much if this is done in the form of self-study or directed study. Not all exams are multiple choice. I think that the UExcel College Writing exam does a good job of evaluating writing ability.

There's also an issue of cost-effectiveness. My entire degree is looking like it will cost around $4,000-$5,000, which is less than what I would have paid in one semester if I attended the local state university. If university offers anything at all, it is just motivation and organization. I'm not willing to pay very much for that.

I do think that the exams we have could be improved and the minimum scores could be increased. That would probably alleviate your concerns.

[MomOfMany]

I will say I dislike the attitude that just passing is enough.
Some schools do give grades, so I plan to strive for an "A".
I might not always make it, but I like to have high goals.

Still sometimes minimum is the best one can manage and even so, the dr who finishes last in his class is still called a dr.:p

[andy3000]

Why has this thread devolved into a discussion of the merits of non-traditional vs. traditional education? We are all adults here; I can make my own decision and live with the consequences.

[MomOfMany]

Why has this thread devolved into a discussion of the merits of non-traditional vs. traditional education? We are all adults here; I can make my own decision and live with the consequences.

Because we're all adults too and conversations often twists and diverges and we can live with it.

[andy3000]

Because we're all adults too and conversations often twists and diverges and we can live with it.

OK, but if someone has a problem with testing out via CLEP, why on earth are they on IC? Anyway, I would really like to know about alternatives to the big 3, options are always good.