Associates in Computer ... something?

[SolarKat]

Harvard only offers a BA in CS. You're overestimating how prepared CS grads are solely based on college courses. The good programmers do lot of practicing outside of college courses. The point of the CS degree is to teach theory.

You do know that the non-traditional programs you suggested have none of this stuff? TESU does offer computer architecture and operating systems, by the way.

Sigh. As I mentioned in particular detail a couple of pages ago, AMU/APU don't offer CS, they have IT options with very heavy programming emphasis...a much better route than 7 random CS classes with TESU for a student wanting programming, as opposed to pure CS. And even WGU, with their software dev degree, require more AOS work than TESU BA CS. As stated before, if programming is the endgame, CS (particularly at TESU) is not going to give them much of a portfolio, if at all. They're not even required to *have* a programming language at TESU, yet still walk away with a CS degree. Shoot, the undergrad certificate requires a programming language, but the bachelors doesn't?! That's insane (at best) and a grievous disservice to their students.

As for comparing TESU's BA CS to Harvard...did you look at what Harvard requires for that CS concentration? To suggest that the two are equivalent is...well, really??

I do have some familiarity with average B&M CS folks and their skillsets, from undergrads through to post-docs, mainly in the high tech/engineering space. I don't have an alphabet soup after my name, because being a military wife has made traditional education a real challenge logistically, but perhaps similar to davewill, I have a fair bit of experience. My work in control systems is published (IEEE), I tutor and mentor undergrad engineers (and the occasional CS student needing to intersect with engineering), I've been active with IEEE and ACM for decades, and even though I don't have a CS degree, I *can* tell you about OS threading, ARM architectures, and why hardware beats software like a rented mule (winking at davewill), because those things come up in real life from my non-CS vantage point.

So when I'm reading that someone is getting a CS degree without it requiring even a basic class in operating systems, I'm very concerned for them. Very. TESU might *offer* the class, but it's not required. And a naive student may not even realize that their competition in the job market (from traditional CS programs, for example) *do* have background/experience with it, and with algorithms, and with architecture, and...well, just refer back to the 18 classes required at Wyoming, compared to the 2-required/5 options at TESU. It's not nearly the same degree. It may work out okay if they just want a job "doing something" with computers, like a business who needs someone to maintain/run a software system for the Point of Sale terminals. Or they've been working a job and will get a raise/promotion with a degree (without requiring a significant change of skill set).

But if they're a bright-eyed, freshly minted CS grad going to Seattle or San Fran or Boston or DC to *be* a high tech computer scientist raking in those big bucks, the TESU degree alone is not going to cut it. I'm presenting this viewpoint because there are a lot more youngsters looking at nontraditional education, such as this student, and many homeschoolers. He may or may not understand the product he's considering buying, because he has little/no background in the field. To him, CS is CS. In the tech world, CS is the 18-class degree, not the 7-class degree. The student doesn't really see the difference, until he gets to a computer science position interview and gets asked the basics that he didn't learn because no one like davewill, who does have a software career and who did get accepted to CS grad school (and who also says to just do brick & mortar in lieu of TESU BA CS), is around to tell him what he's going to miss if he just does the required minimum without understanding what the rest of the world considers the core of a CS degree? Or he'll discover he needs to spend even more money on undergrad-level computer science classes which are prerequisites for the mainstream MS CS, (if he gets accepted at all) because no one told him that his accredited CS degree overlooked a ton of core classes that all the other applicants have. I mean, for a young student, there are an awful lot of down sides to that one upside, "checking the box for a CS degree". He'll potentially get more core CS with the TESU undergrad certificate and a BSBA than with the whole TESU BA CS, depending what 5 CS electives he chooses for the BA. Seriously. And that's a sad thing.

ETA - And I'll go a step farther and say that my *own* TESU degree path with the BS Data Science & Analytics is insufficient (and misleading) for a data science degree! It's not nearly enough CS to go into data science without a lot of outside experience/supplemental coursework. It's not business-y enough to seamlessly merge into analytics for a company without smoothing out the edges. And I'm doing it specifically because it's FAST, so fast, and because I know that my brick & mortar transcript (of math/sci/eng) combined with the checkmark of "degree closely related to engineering" will fulfill admission requirements for the MS Engineering I know I'm doing next (having verified this with both grad admissions and the engineering department chair). Otherwise...I'd say it's useful for a mid-career check-box, or a sketchy overview of the field. It's not sufficient for a young student, either, if they want to dive deep in data science. So I feel their pain!

[icampy]

Thanks for that informative post. The internet makes "instant" experts sometimes, it is always good to hear from "real" ones.

[sanantone]

Sigh. As I mentioned in particular detail a couple of pages ago, AMU/APU don't offer CS, they have IT options with very heavy programming emphasis...a much better route than 7 random CS classes with TESU for a student wanting programming, as opposed to pure CS. And even WGU, with their software dev degree, require more AOS work than TESU BA CS. As stated before, if programming is the endgame, CS (particularly at TESU) is not going to give them much of a portfolio, if at all. They're not even required to *have* a programming language at TESU, yet still walk away with a CS degree. Shoot, the undergrad certificate requires a programming language, but the bachelors doesn't?! That's insane (at best) and a grievous disservice to their students.

As for comparing TESU's BA CS to Harvard...did you look at what Harvard requires for that CS concentration? To suggest that the two are equivalent is...well, really??

I do have some familiarity with average B&M CS folks and their skillsets, from undergrads through to post-docs, mainly in the high tech/engineering space. I don't have an alphabet soup after my name, because being a military wife has made traditional education a real challenge logistically, but perhaps similar to davewill, I have a fair bit of experience. My work in control systems is published (IEEE), I tutor and mentor undergrad engineers (and the occasional CS student needing to intersect with engineering), I've been active with IEEE and ACM for decades, and even though I don't have a CS degree, I *can* tell you about OS threading, ARM architectures, and why hardware beats software like a rented mule (winking at davewill), because those things come up in real life from my non-CS vantage point.

So when I'm reading that someone is getting a CS degree without it requiring even a basic class in operating systems, I'm very concerned for them. Very. TESU might *offer* the class, but it's not required. And a naive student may not even realize that their competition in the job market (from traditional CS programs, for example) *do* have background/experience with it, and with algorithms, and with architecture, and...well, just refer back to the 18 classes required at Wyoming, compared to the 2-required/5 options at TESU. It's not nearly the same degree. It may work out okay if they just want a job "doing something" with computers, like a business who needs someone to maintain/run a software system for the Point of Sale terminals. Or they've been working a job and will get a raise/promotion with a degree (without requiring a significant change of skill set).

But if they're a bright-eyed, freshly minted CS grad going to Seattle or San Fran or Boston or DC to *be* a high tech computer scientist raking in those big bucks, the TESU degree alone is not going to cut it. I'm presenting this viewpoint because there are a lot more youngsters looking at nontraditional education, such as this student, and many homeschoolers. He may or may not understand the product he's considering buying, because he has little/no background in the field. To him, CS is CS. In the tech world, CS is the 18-class degree, not the 7-class degree. The student doesn't really see the difference, until he gets to a computer science position interview and gets asked the basics that he didn't learn because no one like davewill, who does have a software career and who did get accepted to CS grad school (and who also says to just do brick & mortar in lieu of TESU BA CS), is around to tell him what he's going to miss if he just does the required minimum without understanding what the rest of the world considers the core of a CS degree? Or he'll discover he needs to spend even more money on undergrad-level computer science classes which are prerequisites for the mainstream MS CS, (if he gets accepted at all) because no one told him that his accredited CS degree overlooked a ton of core classes that all the other applicants have. I mean, for a young student, there are an awful lot of down sides to that one upside, "checking the box for a CS degree". He'll potentially get more core CS with the TESU undergrad certificate and a BSBA than with the whole TESU BA CS, depending what 5 CS electives he chooses for the BA. Seriously. And that's a sad thing.

ETA - And I'll go a step farther and say that my *own* TESU degree path with the BS Data Science & Analytics is insufficient (and misleading) for a data science degree! It's not nearly enough CS to go into data science without a lot of outside experience/supplemental coursework. It's not business-y enough to seamlessly merge into analytics for a company without smoothing out the edges. And I'm doing it specifically because it's FAST, so fast, and because I know that my brick & mortar transcript (of math/sci/eng) combined with the checkmark of "degree closely related to engineering" will fulfill admission requirements for the MS Engineering I know I'm doing next (having verified this with both grad admissions and the engineering department chair). Otherwise...I'd say it's useful for a mid-career check-box, or a sketchy overview of the field. It's not sufficient for a young student, either, if they want to dive deep in data science. So I feel their pain!

You didn't explain how APUS' program has a heavier programming emphasis that is relevant to gaming. How many games are going to be developed with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript?

[sanantone]

Thanks for that informative post. The internet makes "instant" experts sometimes, it is always good to hear from "real" ones.

So says the person who go smart-mouthed with someone trying to answer his or her question and couldn't manage to use Google. Some people are just ungrateful. I wonder how many times I've answered your questions.

I've worked in the CJ field for a decade. I came across several people who have been in the field longer. They swore up and down that a person didn't need to go through the police academy if he or she has a degree in CJ. That is totally false; they got rid of that exemption years ago. You don't need 50 years of experience to read the law. Those are simply the facts.

Before I started as a counselor, this counselor with years of experience told me I didn't need the internship with the degree I already had. Wrong! I never automatically believe people because they're supposed to experts. Not using your brain and failing to challenge things that don't make sense is how people get into trouble.

My question is, "How do IS, web development, and security courses prepare someone to develop games? How does it make sense to say that TESU is not a fit because it's nontraditional and then recommend an even more nontraditional school with no instructors?

[icampy]

So says the person who go smart-mouthed with someone trying to answer his or her question and couldn't manage to use Google. Some people are just ungrateful. I wonder how many times I've answered your questions.

I wasn't attacking you, by the way. I honestly love hearing from experts in their field, whether they are an engineer, a prison warden, a historian, or a fry cook. I made myself an "internet expert" on a few topics, but I love hearing from people who have BTDT. I like people taking pride in what they do, and sharing their experience with others. You are a invaluable member here, and I appreciate your input on education and life choices, as does everyone else...along with answers to my stupid questions (to what I could google). I am a nice guy, despite my "smartmouth" problem and rough exterior (between being a ranch hand, machinist, fabricator, CO and rec yard officer *this one really made me into a sour hard-ass* through the years, my exterior was honed into quite the spikey, vulgar, hard shell that can only be broken by children, animals, stories of valor and tragedy, and family).

FWIW, I always had an interest in CJ, and while I was a rec yard officer/correction officer at a prison, I was trying to find a way to do a CJ degree to help me as I tried to get into the Special Investigative Services department of the prison....and then to the TX DPS academy after a few years. That was what made me start looking at online college in the first place. Before I got back into my original career field, and finally got another interview and job offer with my current company.

Anyways, I am notorious for being a dick in electronic communications (according to my spouse and friends..... and you), but if I ran across you broke down on the side of the road, dollars to doughnuts I will be there with my toolbox opened to help.

I will try to soften up.

[SolarKat]

You didn't explain how APUS' program has a heavier programming emphasis that is relevant to gaming. How many games are going to be developed with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript?

Well, we were discussing CS, because the OP asked what was out there for computers in general & it was suggested that TESU's CS degree would lead to a lucrative programming job. I think we've debunked that one.

APUS is not a game-specific degree, but it's cheap and heavy on the computing side (vs on the unrelated gen-eds side - I did the credit breakdown on, like, page 2 of the thread). It's a good background in IT with a decent amount of programming, and then if you throw in the mobile computing concentration (a concentration is required) that covers 15 credits of just app development, not web development. Or, there's a concentration that's just programming, 15 credits of programming including Java, scripting, and other game-useful knowledge. So there's that. Not sure where the HTML is coming in, as there's not much of that at all.

Next, the OP's son needs to think about what part of game development might interest him. Computer graphics, game design, augmented/virtual reality...I mean there are a zillion options. SNHU offers a specific BS in Game Programming and Development, as well as a BS in Game Art & Development, for example. I'm sure there are others. My point is, *any* of these alternatives will be heavier on required computer stuff (code, software development, even architecture) than TESU's BA CS. True, they're going to be more applied whereas a CS degree is *supposed* to be theory as well as applied, but...I've said my piece on that. I see there are other posts to address, but I think I've answered this question. AMU/APU have an IT degree that gives a very good foundation in computing/computers, and offers a gaming-relevant concentration or 2.

[dfrecore]

As for comparing TESU's BA CS to Harvard...did you look at what Harvard requires for that CS concentration? To suggest that the two are equivalent is...well, really??

Sanantone was not comparing a TESU degree to a Harvard degree - she was comparing a BS to a BA (which you said was important). She was showing you an example - that many schools do not offer BS's at all, and most employers know this, and so a BA in CS vs. a BS in CS won't be a big deal to most of them. When I worked in HR, we did not care one iota about BA vs. BS. Gave it not a single second of thought.

[SolarKat]

Thanks for that informative post. The internet makes "instant" experts sometimes, it is always good to hear from "real" ones.

I'm not a CS expert. Far from it, hardcore coding makes me want to stick a fork through my skull - I defer to Theonlyski and Davewill, for starters, and I'm at the front of the "we're outsourcing it!" queue. My only interest is in making sure that parents & young people understand the limitations on some of these degrees for people without significant career experience in the field, because there seems to be a number of active homeschoolers looking at degree options for accelerated study/advanced work. As a homeschooling mom, I would want similar input from folks who understand, say, accounting/psychology/CJ degrees, how they're structured, what's required to practice in the real world, the options/advantages/disadvantages of the available programs, etc., if my teen/young adult was in the market for a program. That's all.

[SolarKat]

Sanantone was not comparing a TESU degree to a Harvard degree - she was comparing a BS to a BA (which you said was important). She was showing you an example - that many schools do not offer BS's at all, and most employers know this, and so a BA in CS vs. a BS in CS won't be a big deal to most of them. When I worked in HR, we did not care one iota about BA vs. BS. Gave it not a single second of thought.

The point in contention that Harvard does their CS as a BA, too. My point is more the CS part, not the BA part. In this area, everyone knows that Harvard (among other Boston schools) calls their degrees something noteworthy. (AB, btw.) Folks expect the Harvard CS to be rigorous, and so seeing the AB is not the issue. However, the hiring managers for tech around here would look twice at an unknown school with a BA CS. For a general purpose company wanting someone to "do something with computers" it's not a problem. But it's totally not going to fly with the tech companies in the area (AMD, Teradyne, BAE, Raytheon, to name a few). This area knows CS and they expect CS depth of a CS grad.

It's possible that in a different market, tech may be more forgiving of the lightweight CS. Or in business, they may really want an IT person for their software but call it CS. (This happens in data science a LOT. Companies sling the term around without really knowing what data science is, nor what data scientists do. They just think it'd be good to have...something...along the data lines.)

[SolarKat]

My question is, "How do IS, web development, and security courses prepare someone to develop games? How does it make sense to say that TESU is not a fit because it's nontraditional and then recommend an even more nontraditional school with no instructors?

No, the point that was being discussed was programming, I believe, and computing in general. As I mentioned, I am not familiar with WGU's system, but that they are competency based so at least there's some demonstration of...well...competency. The TESU degree as written (without deliberately selecting rigorous gen-eds/free electives vs the cheap/quick "it'll do" options) doesn't do this, particularly if the student is going to compete for jobs with other actual CS grads. *shrug*

TESU is not a good fit because it has a shockingly sparse CS requirement, in breadth and in depth. Not because it's nontraditional.