ABC 20/20: Bachelors Degrees May Not Be Worth the Money???

[barcotta]

There was a great segment on 20/20 Friday night. Maybe some of you were watching. I thought it was great because it called into question one of the great unsubstantiated claims of our time--one that has been blindly accepted by everyone, including me.

Personally, I love when the cold light of day shines down on some rather murky beliefs. A few that have fallen in my lifetime:

• You can catch a cold if you go outside with wet hair in the winter (or wet feet--or if you sweat and then go into the cold outdoors... all nonsense)
  
  
  
• Violent behavior as an adult can be traced back to televised cartoon violence viewed as a child (The RoadRunner, Tom and Jerry, etc.)
  
  
  
• Homework is necessary for learning (there's a great book called something like "The Homework Myth" which blows the doors off of this one).

The latest myth to fall is the alleged + one million dollars in lifetime earnings of an employee with a bachelors degree vs. an employee without a degree. Please see this link ABC News: Some Debt-Laden Gradutes Wonder Why They Bothered With College which provides a basic transcript as well as the actual video--which I strongly recommend. Highlights include:

• Marty Nemko, an education consultant and career counselor, said he believes the bachelor's degree is America's most overrated product. Nemko is one of many who says there are some ugly statistics the education establishment doesn't like to talk about. But what about that $1 million bonus for getting a bachelor's degree? "There could be no more misleading statistic that I could possibly tell you about," he said. Misleading, Nemko said, because it includes superearners, billionaire college grads who skew the average. Additionally, he said, the students who attend college are already more likely to be successful than those who don't.
  
  
  
• Economics professor Sandy Baum, author of "Education Pays," a College Board study promoting the advantages of higher education, said it is the education that makes the difference. "On average, people benefit much more from going to college," Baum said, agreeing that the $1 million figure is inaccurate. Her study estimated that graduates gain half that.
  
  
  
• "If you're in the bottom 40 percent of your high school class -- and today, colleges are recruiting lots of those kids -- you have a very small chance of graduating, even if you are given 8½ years," career expert Nemko said. "And the immoral thing about it is that the colleges do not disclose that."
  

The article includes examples of folks who went deeply into debt and then never found jobs in their field. There are a whole bunch of comments at the end of the article which add a lot to the conversation as well.

The article doesn't address the use of a bachelors degree to get your foot in the door and meet a qualification which, if not met, means you cannot even get an interview. However, I think this is all supportive of the big three method of obtaining a bachelors degree--although, of course, there is no mention of alternative methods of obtaining accredited bachelors degrees for less than the poor shmoes paid in this clip.

Check it out and let us know what you think.

[Professor_Adam]

It only confirms what I have long believed.

Here's a great example from my personal experience.

I worked as a journalist in the Marine Corps for 4 years. I had no college experience at all and got out in 1998. I took a job as a reporter in Texas for about a year and then moved up to NH and worked as an editor at a medium-size daily paper. I was put in charge of 6 reporters (all of whom had bachelor's degrees and were deeply in debt). I still had no college education at this point and yet I was put in charge of people who did, and I was making more money than them. If they resented me I never sensed it. I think I was respected and treated as a peer based on my knowledge and work ethic -- despite being the one without a degree.

That said, attitude, experience and a willingness to learn and take initiative often trump college education. However, in the military there are clear and distinct benefits of having a bachelor's degree. For me it means the opportunity to become an officer and receive a nice raise of about $800 a month, with much bigger raises as I move up to 1LT and CPT.

[Farmerboy]

I think in the past a college degree showed an individual who was willing to hard and sacrifice to obtain their goal. Now a college degree has been cheapened by the amount of people who have just skated through. That is why this site is so great; we are all working hard!

Farmerboy

[cookderosa]

I didn't save the link, but either here or on the distance learning forum, someone posted an opinion piece that talked about the million dollar myth. He argued that the bachelor degree holders, who DO make more money, can't put causation on the degree itself. He argued that bright-motivated minds could have been locked in a basement for 4 years and would probably come out and make something of themselves. In other words, they could have made it anyway.

I always find it interesting that the people making the argument (and the writer of the piece I remember) all have degrees!

Another thing to remember, is that (in general) there IS NO career counseling going on at any level- EVER. Not at high school and certainly not at college. Maybe by the parents, but to what level is that helpful?

Colleges advise specifically for their program. It's like getting your nutrition information at McDonald's- they only have it for THEIR burgers. People continue to earn degrees that won't pay off "financially"- I see it at my community college and I see it here. But is it wrong? I don't think it's wrong, I'd just like to see some "informed consent" of sorts.

[motuterry]

A college degree is an investment in ones self. It is, however, but one piece of a puzzle. Motivation, effort and skill are the other requirements. I watched the ABC report in full. In my view, a number of people shown in the ABC program, again in my opinion, did not appear to have the complete package. The expectation that by virtue of earning a degree one automatically gains access to a high earning career is indeed a myth. A degree will help open doors that might otherwise be locked but it doesn't guarantee success.

[HawkGuy]

Motuterry is right. In my humble opinion, it depends more on what your degree is in and what you plan to do with it than anything. If one gets a degree in Liberal Studies (like me) and hopes for a job paying 100 grand a year just on the basis of education alone, they're in for a rude awakening. It's a door opener, not a push through the door.

That one lady said said she spent 85 grand on a BA in Human Development. I'm wondering what job she hoped to get. In all psychology jobs, you need at least a Masters to get a job as a counselor. Her first problem was spending 85 grand on a BA. Her second mistake was not doing her due diligence regarding her career plans. She failed to do her research and it came back to haunt her.

The next guy got a degree in Meteorology that cost him $77,000. Ok, using my Google-fu skillz, I found out that an entry level metro guy makes 36-40 grand a year. That's assuming you can get a job.

Now on to jobs that do pay well. A BS in Pharmacy will land you a job making 120k/yr in any state in the union. Sure you'll have the 75-100k student loans, but that's what the high paycheck is for. Will a Pharmacist make a million dollars more than a HS grad? Yeah.

A new recruit in the military makes 15.5 grand a year. No college, just a HS diploma or GED. In three years he'll be up to 24.3k/yr. A new officer makes 31.8k to start, but in three years he'll be up to just about $52,000 a year. The difference? To become a military officer, you need a Bachelors.

I was looking online at government jobs a month or so ago. There was one advertised for some director of operations position at the VA here in Phoenix. The requirement: a BS in Business. The salary? 77 grand.

I think a BA/BS degree holder will make a million dollars more over the course of a career. But only if it's a degree and career path that have been thoroughly thought out. Which not too many people do these days.

[bazonkers]

I think it depends on what you want to do. I've seen lots of jobs that "require" a bachelors degree. The actual job may not require one but the employer is using it as a filter to reduce the amount of resumes they get. A bachelors degree opens up these jobs to the holder.

If an 18 yr old has no idea what he wants to do, college could be a way to experience different courses and topics and they might find something that really interests them. Without any experience at all, it would be a bit difficult getting hired as an entry level person in many white collar jobs. Choosing the right degree is also key. Taking on a ton of debt and graduating with a BA in Liberal Arts is not the road to the $1 mil dollars.

As for the $1 mil number, that could be made up but there are lots of higher paying jobs that are more difficult or impossible to get hired in w/o a bachelors degree. Teachers, Librarians, etc. all require at least a bachelors degree. Lots of finance industry, business analyst, and similar jobs have high barriers to entry w/o a bachelors degree.

Will one make more with a bachelors degree for sure? Maybe. It all depends on what job or career you get into with that degree. If you get the degree and then take a job as a manager at a department store hoping for a big raise, it's probably not coming. If you want to break into one of the fields I mention or others mentioned above, then yes, you might. At the least, it gets your foot in the door.

It'd be interesting to see if they lump in jobs that require HIGHER than a bachelors degree to come up with the $1 million number. Technically, a surgeon making $500K a year needs a bachelor degree.

[Lindagerr]

I have worked in the chemical field for over 30 years now. I have a good work record staying with most of my employers at least 6 years. If I go out to find a job now I have a problem, most of the jobs I am qualified for require at least a bachelors degree. I can not even get my resume looked at, now that I have my AA I can get in a few more doors, but then I have a problem because I am too qualified for the entry level jobs because of my experience.

So in my case I think if I has that little piece of paper 30 years ago I could be making 6 figures now, but because I didn't I may never get up to 6 figures.

I know a girl my daughters age (mid thirties) who was a gifted A student all through school, went to a good college earned her BS degree in psychology, I don't know what she planned to do with it, but she is still working as a waitress in the same place she started when she was 16. I don't think she is ever going to earn her $1 mil.

[brothermike]

A Bachelor's is simply a ticket to the dance. It gets you past the first barrier to entry but then you have to show what kind of moves you have.

[peace123]

I know a girl my daughters age (mid thirties) who was a gifted A student all through school, went to a good college earned her BS degree in psychology, I don't know what she planned to do with it, but she is still working as a waitress in the same place she started when she was 16. I don't think she is ever going to earn her $1 mil.

I wonder if college was her idea or her parents.

Do you know if she enjoys her work ?

I do find it interesting her degree is in Psychology and she is working in a job that has her constantly interacting with others. Does she use what she learned in psychology to get bigger tips ? Or maybe she is using what she learned to help others ... does she listen to her customers stories, etc. ?

Peace123