ENEB Master Thread

[rachel83az]

Bringing up Coursera and edX has left me confused. I'm working on a certificate on Coursera from Columbia University right now. The courses are on Coursera not Columbia's website. I'm also going to be completing a certificate on edX from RIT which again is on edX not RIT's website. So would leave Coursera and edX off when listing the certificates and just list Columbia and RIT? Man this stuff is so complicated these days!

For the Google IT Support Professional Certificate, Google helpfully shares how you should add the certificate to your LinkedIn and resume. None of the examples mention Coursera.

[Flelm]

Code:

EDUCATION

Thomas Edison State University, Trenton, NJ
2016 - 2021
B.S. Business Administration (Operations Management Concentration)

ENEB Business School, Barcelona, Spain
2021 - 2023
Master Titulo Propio in Project Management (comparable to graduate certificate)

Unsolicited advice, if this is actually how you're listing stuff on your CV:
- get rid of the word 'concentration'. Yes, technically there's a difference between a major and a concentration, but it's not important enough to distinguish here.
- take out the 'comparable to . . . ' stuff. Titulo Propio Master (in whatever)' is sufficient. You can explain the details when (if) asked.
- use the same structure for describing majors/specialisations/concentrations across all degree levels. So if your format for the undergrad is 'BA (English)', don't list post-grad as 'Masters in Arts - Journalism'. I've seen it happen again and again, and while it's not a deal-breaker, it's a sign of poor attention to detail and lack of consistency.
- white space is your friend, and will make your hiring manager happy. I'm not sure of the value of listing the location of your universities, although I note it is a common preference for applicants. I find it distracting, and it doesn't add much to shortlisting decisions.

Thanks for the feedback. I am in fact listing my TESU degree that way, although I do appreciate the fact that "concentration in" is unnecessary. I threw the ENEB on there as an example, and would definitely want the formats to match.

I did some amateur googling. This website (https://www.ccelpa.org/como-se-hace-un-c...lum-vitae/) says that a titulo propio can go in the education or additional training sections, depending on what you want to highlight. This website (https://www.ceupe.com/blog/titulo-propio...iarlo.html) indicates that a titulo propio should not be held to be the same as a standard university master's degree (although they have a vested interest in saying that since they offer titulos oficiales). This thread (https://www.spaniards.es/foros/2013/09/0...ulo-propio) from 2013 runs the gamut, from calling it out as a non-Bologna degree to just calling it a Master's since that's what it is. Finally, for public/state jobs, titulos propios usually count as continuing education credits, or at least lesser than titulos oficiales.

I think I've come to see the titulo propio as the equivalent to a US nationally accredited degree, and I would not call attention to that on a resume. I think I would list this as just a Masters in Project Management in my education section, listed with ENEB. I don't think I would explain it any more, I don't think I would list an MBA from them, and I definitely wouldn't put Isabel I. Final answer!

[jsd]

I think it's disingenuous to say that there is no course content from Isabel. At the very least, we know from the articulation agreement between ENEB and UI1 (a document that can be found on the ENEB website) that Isabel approved the course content and the degree program. They also issue their own full degree that can be verified on their website in addition to ENEB's degree. They do not, however, issue transcripts

If this is the case, it makes a little more sense to me with them issuing a UI1 degree themselves. confused why they would do that without a transcript, but if that's the weird system they have for their programs in Spain, so be it. As long as there is a way UI1 lets you verify your degree with UI1, that makes sense to me.

Plus, we already see this happening with the many programs people on this forum have already completed. If you were an OG at TESU and only did the capstone with them, it's possible that TESU just basically vouches for all the Straighterline, Study.com, Saylor, etc credits and stamps their seal of approval on your degree saying, "Yup, we issued it!" 

As a counterpoint, do you note on your CV that you only did two classes at TESU to complete your BA Psych? Do you consider that to be a legit TESU degree even though you had very limited interaction with TESU, their faculty, or their curriculum? You absolutely should, but the line of thinking that leads to it being disingenuous to claim that a degree from a school came from that school also leads to wondering whether a degree based solely on transfer credit with one class should also fall under the same umbrella.

[...]

I don't know, maybe you should just for the sake of disclosing all the information. I, for one, am going to start listing my WGU degree as:

Bachelor of Science in Information Technology - Security from Western Governors University, awarded as a result of 35 credits completed at the institution, 53 credits completed at [Community College], 6 credits approved by ACE, and my formerly-but-not-presently-held CCNP and CCNA Security certifications evaluated as equivalent to 29 credits by the institution.

That's the only way to handle this, clearly /s

Not really necessary (nor the same situation I had in mind as ENEB prior to your clarification) since TESU or WGU was the degree granting institution, and those details are available on transcript. Sounds like UI1 is essentially the same, despite them inadvertently concealing the source by not providing a transcript. But again, if that's how their school system works, that's how it works. It'd be nice to see a foreign evaluator look at the UI1 aspect, so that we could finally get an evaluation to come in as an accredited US-masters equivalent, but without a transcript I'm not sure how that would work. One would think the foreign evaluators would be more familiar with all of this and be able to work it out, but what do I know.

Anyway, the confusion was precisely why I asked, and I appreciate the clarification.

[eLearner]

Hard disagree...

So before I begin, it's important people know that on at least two boards you have made quite a few posts speaking ill of this program. You were one of the many early detractors speaking with certainty that the program would never get any favorable evaluations. However, several favorable evaluations have come out further substantiating the program's legitimacy and proving you wrong. Despite that, while most others have accepted defeat and moved on, your shots at the program have continued.

Hard disagree, because it's not the same as a 'regular' masters

That's an ambiguous characterization, it also most likely has no merit given the fact that there are and have been other project-based master's programs, some have even been independent study just like this one. What's 'regular' is open to wide interpretation. Some have argued that any master's (or any degree earned online) is not 'regular', so out the window goes every master's from every school including top-tier schools and those in the Ivy League. 

and obfuscating this fact crosses the line between painting yourself in the best light, and active deception.

What? No. Listing a credential as-written is the exact opposite of that. Doing something other than that is active deception.

This is one place where, if I as your friendly hiring manager had questions (and you were otherwise perfect to bring in for interview) and I didn't know what this titulo propio was, I'd simply google it and then decide if such a degree would be a problem for that position.

This is missing the point. Generally speaking, we are not Spanish, we are English-speakers in an English-speaking nation, and that's the first issue, so using "Titulo Propio" on your resume makes no sense for that reason, and for the second reason that it's not listed on the degree document. Can't say it enough, stick to what's on the document, there is no other perfect honesty outside of that and I'm mystified as to how that can even be debated.

(It may or may not be, depending on a lot of things, few of which you can predict from the outset.) I am more likely to google unfamiliar uni names, and given the first page results associated with this 'degree', this area is probably where you should be worrying.

With many thousands of people gainfully employed with degrees from schools that don't even exist, there isn't much to worry about by listing a degree from one that does. The only real worry is that someone competing for the job has a degree from a more recognized school and this is your highest credential so you lose out, but that happens often even with people who hold degrees from better recognized schools.

Frankly, if you've arrived at the final stage of the hiring process and your hiring manager discovers you've wasted their time, you won't get a chance to argue your case. Your hiring manager is not your mother, and the idea that you'll 'have to explain' is laughable. No hiring manager is going to waste their time following up. You'll get the standard 'thanks for interviewing, but we've decided to go in another direction' email (leaving you to wonder where it all went wrong - you'll likely never even know it was the ENEB degree which caused it) and be put on a list of people to absolutely never consider ever. If your (ex-)hiring manager is really PO'd or stressed after all this, you'll probably even be included in the Friday evening rant at the pub. And when you apply somewhere else next week, no doubt there'll be a text, one hiring manager to another: 'hey, they've applied here too. Lol.'

Any hiring manager that has gone that far without having made a determination on all of a candidate's qualifications sucks as a hiring manager and is used to wasting his/her own time with poor vetting skills.

Also, comments like 'the people in Spain' are a bit unpleasant and a simplistic way to regard an entire nation (which is made up of many individuals). 'The people in America' need to stop doing this.

I don't know what in the world you think you're doing there, but whatever you're implying with that is way off base, and honestly, weird. People who try to create an issue where there isn't one need to stop doing that.

---

If this is the case, it makes a little more sense to me with them issuing a UI1 degree themselves. confused why they would do that without a transcript, but if that's the weird system they have for their programs in Spain, so be it. As long as there is a way UI1 lets you verify your degree with UI1, that makes sense to me.

I was confused about this too until I looked into how many schools they certify and how they do it. There is a common curriculum amongst all of the schools Isabel certifies, some are identical, so it suggests some oversight and approval of the programs by Isabel which isn't surprising. To add on, if they were to handle transcripts for all of the schools and all of the students connected to those schools it would be an impossible workload that would require an Amazon-like mega processing center, lol. For those reasons, it just makes sense to have each individually-certified school handle transcripts. Heck, ENEB alone has so many students that it takes them up to 60 days now to issue credentials. Imagine if Isabel handled that kind of workload for every school they certify. People would be getting their degrees years after completion.

---

Thanks for the feedback. I am in fact listing my TESU degree that way, although I do appreciate the fact that "concentration in" is unnecessary. I threw the ENEB on there as an example, and would definitely want the formats to match.

I did some amateur googling. This website (https://www.ccelpa.org/como-se-hace-un-c...lum-vitae/) says that a titulo propio can go in the education or additional training sections, depending on what you want to highlight. This website (https://www.ceupe.com/blog/titulo-propio...iarlo.html) indicates that a titulo propio should not be held to be the same as a standard university master's degree (although they have a vested interest in saying that since they offer titulos oficiales). This thread (https://www.spaniards.es/foros/2013/09/0...ulo-propio) from 2013 runs the gamut, from calling it out as a non-Bologna degree to just calling it a Master's since that's what it is. Finally, for public/state jobs, titulos propios usually count as continuing education credits, or at least lesser than titulos oficiales.

I think I've come to see the titulo propio as the equivalent to a US nationally accredited degree, and I would not call attention to that on a resume. I think I would list this as just a Masters in Project Management in my education section, listed with ENEB. I don't think I would explain it any more, I don't think I would list an MBA from them, and I definitely wouldn't put Isabel I. Final answer!

Just remember that like education articles written by people here in America with a bias against nationally accredited degrees for example, you'll find similar slants from people in Spain with something against propios, so you'll find a number of questionable suggestions. To cut through the BS, just know that even top schools in Spain like UAB offer propios, and I can assure you that nobody is looking at them as just continuing education. For the most part, the propio is pursued by people in Spain because it's less expensive, and they know going in that savings comes with the limit of not being able to work in government or enter a Doctoral program.

I think I've come to see the titulo propio as the equivalent to a US nationally accredited degree

The comparison doesn't work in the U.S. context. An NA degree doesn't stop you from working in U.S. government or entering a U.S. Doctoral program the way a propio in Spain stops you from Spanish government work or entering a Doctoral program in Spain. Funnily enough, a propio from Spain used in America doesn't stop you from doing those things in America either. The other thing is, if you go to work in an official U.S. government position or try to enter a U.S. Doctoral program you'll more than likely be getting a foreign credential evaluation at some point, and it's at that point your propio will either be determined as equivalent to a U.S. regionally accredited credential or U.S. non-accredited, but never nationally accredited as--to my knowledge-- there are no evaluators who evaluate for NA equivalence.

[ss20ts]

Bringing up Coursera and edX has left me confused. I'm working on a certificate on Coursera from Columbia University right now. The courses are on Coursera not Columbia's website. I'm also going to be completing a certificate on edX from RIT which again is on edX not RIT's website. So would leave Coursera and edX off when listing the certificates and just list Columbia and RIT? Man this stuff is so complicated these days!

For the Google IT Support Professional Certificate, Google helpfully shares how you should add the certificate to your LinkedIn and resume. None of the examples mention Coursera.

This is good to know. Thanks! I'll be listing the certificates under their university then which sounds sooooooo much better!

[Flelm]

I think I've come to see the titulo propio as the equivalent to a US nationally accredited degree

The comparison doesn't work in the U.S. context. An NA degree doesn't stop you from working in U.S. government or entering a U.S. Doctoral program the way a propio in Spain stops you from Spanish government work or entering a Doctoral program in Spain. Funnily enough, a propio from Spain used in America doesn't stop you from doing those things in American either. The other thing is, if you go to work in an official U.S. government position or try to enter a U.S. Doctoral program you'll more than likely be getting a foreign credential evaluation at some point, and it's at that point your propio will either be determined as equivalent to a U.S. regionally accredited credential or U.S. non-accredited, but never nationally accredited as--to my knowledge-- there are no evaluators who evaluate for NA equivalence.

Phew, there's a lot to unpack here, and I really don't want to turn this into a rehash of the other thread. Let me start by saying that I do not mean to make any objective value statements with my posts. I am speaking about how I feel, and my interpretation of a titulo propio's reputation. I agree that online articles and everything else have their own biases, and you need to take all that information into account. I agree that no foreign credit evaluator will say it's equivalent to a nationally accredited degree. I mean that I feel (and you can't tell me that how I feel is wrong) like a titulo propio in Spain may have the reputation a NA degree has in the US: Most don't care, and those that do are mostly in academia, and only care because they have a titulo oficial.

Here's what I disagree with (in this thread, not with you specifically): I personally believe that listing Universidad Isabel I as the degree-granting institution is disingenuous at best, and a lie at worst. I feel that putting ENEB, or European Business School of Barcelona, as the granting institution is much more correct.

I have searched through publicly-available CVs of Spainards, and they do not differentiate between a titulo propio and titulo oficial. The name of the school seems to do that on its own in Spain. Hiring managers recognize that a "business school" is likely a titulo propio, and a "university" is a titulo oficial. This may not always be true (https://www.nebrija.com/en/postgraduate-degree/ is proof that Spanish Universities deliver titulo propio degrees), of course, but it's the conclusion I'm going to jump to with a small sample size, and that fact that it really doesn't matter to me and my career plans.

[eLearner]

I think I've come to see the titulo propio as the equivalent to a US nationally accredited degree

The comparison doesn't work in the U.S. context. An NA degree doesn't stop you from working in U.S. government or entering a U.S. Doctoral program the way a propio in Spain stops you from Spanish government work or entering a Doctoral program in Spain. Funnily enough, a propio from Spain used in America doesn't stop you from doing those things in American either. The other thing is, if you go to work in an official U.S. government position or try to enter a U.S. Doctoral program you'll more than likely be getting a foreign credential evaluation at some point, and it's at that point your propio will either be determined as equivalent to a U.S. regionally accredited credential or U.S. non-accredited, but never nationally accredited as--to my knowledge-- there are no evaluators who evaluate for NA equivalence.

Phew, there's a lot to unpack here, and I really don't want to turn this into a rehash of the other thread. Let me start by saying that I do not mean to make any objective value statements with my posts. I am speaking about how I feel, and my interpretation of a titulo propio's reputation. I agree that online articles and everything else have their own biases, and you need to take all that information into account. I agree that no foreign credit evaluator will say it's equivalent to a nationally accredited degree. I mean that I feel (and you can't tell me that how I feel is wrong) like a titulo propio in Spain may have the reputation a NA degree has in the US: Most don't care, and those that do are mostly in academia, and only care because they have a titulo oficial.

Here's what I disagree with (in this thread, not with you specifically): I personally believe that listing Universidad Isabel I as the degree-granting institution is disingenuous at best, and a lie at worst. I feel that putting ENEB, or European Business School of Barcelona, as the granting institution is much more correct.

I have searched through publicly-available CVs of Spainards, and they do not differentiate between a titulo propio and titulo oficial. The name of the school seems to do that on its own in Spain. Hiring managers recognize that a "business school" is likely a titulo propio, and a "university" is a titulo oficial. This may not always be true (https://www.nebrija.com/en/postgraduate-degree/ is proof that Spanish Universities deliver titulo propio degrees), of course, but it's the conclusion I'm going to jump to with a small sample size, and that fact that it really doesn't matter to me and my career plans.

I'm not here to tell anyone how they should feel. That's none of my concern. My concern is to try to deal in factual information as much as possible. Just to let you know, ENEB itself has in the past communicated how to list the credentials. They have said it is perfectly acceptable to list Isabel, and they have also gone on to list all of the different conventions that it can be listed as (Isabel I University, Isabel International University, and a number of other combinations in Spanish, I posted about this here sometime in 2020). At the end of the day, you're being issued a separate degree document with Isabel's name, logo, seal, stamp, and chancellor's signature, with a QR code and verification number that can be input into Isabel's verification website that carries Isabel's logo. So it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that they would communicate what they did.

They've also told some that it is okay to list the Master's as an MA in (insert major). Do I agree that people should do that? Personally, I would advise against it because I'm very much for listing things as they're written to avoid any confusion, but if the school says it's okay then their official word trumps the unofficial.

[Flelm]

Just to let you know, ENEB itself has in the past communicated how to list the credentials. They have said it is perfectly acceptable to list Isabel, and they have also gone on to list all of the different conventions that it can be listed as (Isabel I University, Isabel International University, and a number of other combinations in Spanish, I posted about this here sometime in 2020).

Do you mind linking those communications if you have them handy?

The one diploma I've seen says that Isabel "notes" and "certifies" that the degree has been "imparted by [ENEB]". That, to me, says they're acting as an accreditation body for this degree and not a granting institution. I would not list my degree as coming from Isabel.

[Thorne]

-snip-

Yeah, that's fair. For the record, my sarcasm there wasn't aimed at you, just aimed in the general direction of people who think the only ethical way to list a degree is to divulge every detail as if Tolkein was writing the Silmarillion about your educational background, lol.
I had my own difficulties with the lack of a transcript and how things seemed to be disconnected from the partner school, which is why I waited almost 9 months to bite on the program after first seeing it posted.

---

Just to let you know, ENEB itself has in the past communicated how to list the credentials. They have said it is perfectly acceptable to list Isabel, and they have also gone on to list all of the different conventions that it can be listed as (Isabel I University, Isabel International University, and a number of other combinations in Spanish, I posted about this here sometime in 2020).

Do you mind linking those communications if you have them handy?

The one diploma I've seen says that Isabel "notes" and "certifies" that the degree has been "imparted by [ENEB]". That, to me, says they're acting as an accreditation body for this degree and not a granting institution. I would not list my degree as coming from Isabel.

I'm not involved in those (but many have been posted in the original thread). However, I can give you a link to one such piece of information that is quite important to the accrediting vs awarding body: https://eneb.es/Documents/ConvenioENEB_Ui1.pdf

This states, in black and white:

With the aim of clarifying in advance any questions you may have in this regard, this document serves to certify that the Isabel I University grants its own degree to the following programs of the Europa Business School of Barcelona (ENEB):

That, plus the verification and the Isabel diploma, are why I'll list it as coming from Isabel and not ENEB.

[Flelm]

I'm not involved in those (but many have been posted in the original thread). However, I can give you a link to one such piece of information that is quite important to the accrediting vs awarding body: https://eneb.es/Documents/ConvenioENEB_Ui1.pdf

This states, in black and white:

With the aim of clarifying in advance any questions you may have in this regard, this document serves to certify that the Isabel I University grants its own degree to the following programs of the Europa Business School of Barcelona (ENEB):

That, plus the verification and the Isabel diploma, are why I'll list it as coming from Isabel and not ENEB.

Thanks for that, that's the part I was missing. I take back all I said about the choice of other to list Isabel vs ENEB. I'll have to think hard about how I want to do it myself.