Dismissal of online learning still a thing?

[MNomadic]

So I pose the question here: If an online learner took the same necessary in-person training as the brick-and-mortar learner 

 assuming a pure B&M learner and an online learner both had equal hands on/clinical experience 

MNomadic

It takes real hand on practice.  

So we are in agreement 

[eriehiker]

"MNomadic

I like your MIT example.  I do not think it applies to medical.   I have given IV's before in a combat lifesaver course (blended online part and 1 week F2F) and overseas.  You can't do it online.  It takes real hand on practice.  I was NOT a real medic.  I never felt that confident in this task.  I understand the bias. I am not saying its justified, but I can see why. "

This might just be a question of expectations.  Maybe if people are conditioned to expect the needle to be perfectly placed on the first try, they will require doctors/nurses with actual in-person coursework.  However, if people are okay with a couple of sticks, then online is probably perfectly okay.

Haha!

But, really, this is the kind of process that has happened in many, many situations.  Websites without real journalists can't actually cover governmental meetings effectively, but we made that switch anyway when people changed their expectations to be okay with crappy re-post web sites for cheap.

[Life Long Learning]

So I pose the question here: If an online learner took the same necessary in-person training as the brick-and-mortar learner 

 assuming a pure B&M learner and an online learner both had equal hands on/clinical experience 

MNomadic

It takes real hand on practice.  

So we are in agreement 

If and assuming are both a big question?

I am still waiting for the Navy SEAL online course

[High_Order1]

This might just be a question of expectations.  Maybe if people are conditioned to expect the needle to be perfectly placed on the first try, they will require doctors/nurses with actual in-person coursework.  However, if people are okay with a couple of sticks, then online is probably perfectly okay.

Haha!

Kindly disagree.

Short answer - do YOU want to be the first tissue-based exemplar your brain surgeon has ever touched?

Long answer - I have been an early adopter of technology. Especially distance education. I was doing it when it was called 'correspondence courses'.

Even in todays' borderline 'star trek' reality, there simply are things that lend well to online education, and some that are not.

Some that are not include things that require a certain amount of physical skill or dexterity.

Example: they make what's called a 'virtual cadaver' now. I've seen it, it's fascinating. But it still does not replace cutting into a tissue-based cadaver with a face and painted toenails and was someone's grandmother just a few hours ago.

Example: I've gotten to run notional 'pursuits' on an immersive simulator. Pretty neat, they basically hacked the interior out of a police car type vehicle, and you sit in a seat and off you go. The lack of the effects of physics makes its' use limited at best. It is great for taking a person who is new to emergency vehicle response, and sit on a bucket and say hey, let's pause here. What do we need to do? In the old days, it was in a retired cruiser on a skid pad. And you wore a helmet. And sometimes a mouthguard. lol

In both examples, online / distance / virtual is an excellent way to 'dip your toe' into the subject material in a less judgmental, less invasive way. But there are tons of topics that cannot be given adequate attention unless you are actually doing it, even if you're doing it in a safe harbor.

One way this tide is receding - have you ever heard of the sim man 3G? This is a toy robot that costs about 10 grand. It hooks up to a computer. Everything on it works like a patient; the eyes dilate, you can check pulse, start a foley catheter, cardiovert it. When they use the headset,  you can even interact with it like a disney attraction dummy!

Currently students are videotaped as they process a preselected scenario. No proctors are in the room. The student responds and probes exactly like it was a tissue-based encounter.

I can see a day where you can order a 'paramedic in a box' or doctor in a box' and one of those things arrives at your house, and you still do skills, but an instructor proctors you just like how our testing works now.

So I pose the question here: If an online learner took the same necessary in-person training as the brick-and-mortar learner 

 assuming a pure B&M learner and an online learner both had equal hands on/clinical experience 

MNomadic

It takes real hand on practice.  

So we are in agreement 

If and assuming are both a big question?

I am still waiting for the Navy SEAL online course

In the very early 1980's, there was a set of Army Professional Development correspondence courses for the Special Forces MOS. Graduates got the ASI, but were derisively referred to as 'paper tabbers'...

[cookderosa]

I think online learning bias will completely disappear in a few years. High schools are offering hybrid schedules with some courses offered online - for high school classes! Some of those students are taking college courses online while in high school. In my 14 year old's world, online education is a given. There will still be a bias regarding school brand. B&M won't disappear - in person classes are still necessary for some fields but I don't see the purpose of taking some of the Gen Eds in person.

3 of my 4 sons have taken college classes (in high school online) and it's just a different world - why would they have to go to a different building just to hear someone speak about something? My #2 son took hands-on classes on campus (automotive) however, a good portion of the program was online - in fact, the days of "only" campus-based learning are gone. Even the culinary university my husband teaches for requires ALL homework /quizzes, etc. to come through Moodle. So, even if your class isn't "online" you better at least be skilled at navigating technology. I can't imagine going back to handing things in on paper - you couldn't check it for plagiarism...or spelling...man... how DID we do it in the old days?

[eLearner]

@High_Order1

The proper word for Nursing programs is probably "Hybrid", part online, part in-person. I've not heard or seen of any online Nursing programs that don't require in-person training for the same things that ground-based Nursing students would be required to have and that goes for anything involving the use of needles, but if you know of any I'd be interested in checking them out.

As far as I know, the things you discussed are still required by all programs to be done in-person and those things should be done in-person for obvious reasons.

---

@MNomadic

In most programs in the sciences and specifically in the medical field, there are things you can do online and things you need to do in-person. That is fine and I would never dispute that setup. I'm actually against programs that are targeting clinical practice but don't include clinical training and actually find it rather irresponsible.

What I am in favor of is an online program that allows you to take the parts that don't need to be done in-person online, while mandating in-person training for the parts where hands-on training is indispensable. I think that's a reasonable thought process.

What struck me is how people dismissed that and ignored the fact that the online learner would have the same level of hands-on training in the critical parts that required it. The blanket idea of throwing away all online programs because a few are run irresponsibly is in itself irresponsible on the part of the detractors.

[High_Order1]

@High_Order1

The proper word for Nursing programs is probably "Hybrid", part online, part in-person.

Ok

Where was I discussing a nursing program? I talked about law enforcement, paramedic, medical school, and a blip about military training.

[eriehiker]

I am glad that online teaching programs haven't really happened. I think that everyone needs to student teach.

[Life Long Learning]

This might just be a question of expectations.  Maybe if people are conditioned to expect the needle to be perfectly placed on the first try, they will require doctors/nurses with actual in-person coursework.  However, if people are okay with a couple of sticks, then online is probably perfectly okay.

Haha!

Kindly disagree.

Short answer - do YOU want to be the first tissue-based exemplar your brain surgeon has ever touched?

Long answer - I have been an early adopter of technology. Especially distance education. I was doing it when it was called 'correspondence courses'.

Even in todays' borderline 'star trek' reality, there simply are things that lend well to online education, and some that are not.

Some that are not include things that require a certain amount of physical skill or dexterity.

Example: they make what's called a 'virtual cadaver' now. I've seen it, it's fascinating. But it still does not replace cutting into a tissue-based cadaver with a face and painted toenails and was someone's grandmother just a few hours ago.

Example: I've gotten to run notional 'pursuits' on an immersive simulator. Pretty neat, they basically hacked the interior out of a police car type vehicle, and you sit in a seat and off you go. The lack of the effects of physics makes its' use limited at best. It is great for taking a person who is new to emergency vehicle response, and sit on a bucket and say hey, let's pause here. What do we need to do? In the old days, it was in a retired cruiser on a skid pad. And you wore a helmet. And sometimes a mouthguard. lol

In both examples, online / distance / virtual is an excellent way to 'dip your toe' into the subject material in a less judgmental, less invasive way. But there are tons of topics that cannot be given adequate attention unless you are actually doing it, even if you're doing it in a safe harbor.

One way this tide is receding - have you ever heard of the sim man 3G? This is a toy robot that costs about 10 grand. It hooks up to a computer. Everything on it works like a patient; the eyes dilate, you can check pulse, start a foley catheter, cardiovert it. When they use the headset,  you can even interact with it like a disney attraction dummy!

Currently students are videotaped as they process a preselected scenario. No proctors are in the room. The student responds and probes exactly like it was a tissue-based encounter.

I can see a day where you can order a 'paramedic in a box' or doctor in a box' and one of those things arrives at your house, and you still do skills, but an instructor proctors you just like how our testing works now.

 assuming a pure B&M learner and an online learner both had equal hands on/clinical experience 

MNomadic

It takes real hand on practice.  

So we are in agreement 

If and assuming are both a big question?

I am still waiting for the Navy SEAL online course

In the very early 1980's, there was a set of Army Professional Development correspondence courses for the Special Forces MOS. Graduates got the ASI, but were derisively referred to as 'paper tabbers'...

The paper tabs ended before 1986.

How about online paper SEALs fighting the next war

You can teach skills online, but learning under mental and physical stress creates a different product.  I see the merit of all three learning types (online, blended, and F2F).

[a2jc4life]

I think some of y'all are still missing what the OP was asking about. Nobody (here) is trying to suggest that an entire medical education could happen online. The question is if all of the *book learning* happened online, with the same hands-on requirements (residency), etc., what's the difference? Who cares if your book education came from planting your butt in a classroom chair or a kitchen chair?

And really, I think it boils down to people's being too happy in their ignorance to educate themselves about the thing they're mocking. We see the same thing with homeschooling. People assume that homeschoolers necessarily receive an inferior education due to any number of things that are "different" about homeschooling, when the reality is that research shows homeschoolers do at least as well academically, and none of the factors people point to as problematic are actually problems. Those types of people aren't interested in finding out the actual facts, though; they're too busy puffing themselves up. (And, frankly, THOSE are the people I don't want providing my medical care. If you think you know everything, just keep your hands off me! I want my medical staff to be humble and rational.)