The College Scam

[dfrecore]

Another good reason, IMO, why university should be free.

Hmmmm...wondering how something could possibly be free.  That's the "f-word" in our family, and I don't allow my kids to say it.  Always replace "free" with "taxpayer-funded."


Also, there are plenty of people who go to college for the "college experience" or choose their "dream school" that is incredibly expensive.  Maybe taxpayers can fund community colleges for everyone, but letting anyone who wants to just choose to live their dream and I pay for that is not my idea of a good program.  Heck, I can afford to, but didn't send my own kids to their dream college because I don't want them to be entitled and think that this is a good use of MY money.  So why am I going to pay for someone else's kid to do this?  No thanks.

[cardiacclep]

If I could go back in time, I'll do the following:

1. Take maximum number of CLEP exam credits
2. Take maximum number of AP exam credits
3. Take 1 year worth of online community college credits
4. Transfer those credits to a traditional 4 year college, graduate within 1 year

Seriously, traditional colleges worth only 1 year max
Avoid the debt
If you can test things out by AP and CLEP, do that instead
You don't need to sit through 4 years and suffer from a great amount of debt

The story can be different only if you're from a very very rich family. If you're going to get lots of debt for college, think twice.

That's the advice I usually tell younger people and stop short of preaching because everyone has their own path. But gosh.....the gen ed stuff at minimum should be knocked off dirt cheap. Honestly finishing the last 30 or so credits on campus without the the debt of the last 3 years is a good compromise for the "college experience" for a younger person. The cost of college is real but people really don't take the time to figure out there is a way to cut that significantly as this entire forum proves that. Still surprises me most people never heard of CLEP......

[rachel83az]

Still surprises me most people never heard of CLEP......

Probably because a lot of schools don't even accept CLEP. Of the ones that do, a significant number of them only accept some CLEP. You can't CLEP your English Comp requirement at Excelsior, for instance, even though they are relatively generous about the credits they grant.

[nykorn]

I agree that not everyone needs college and that college in general is often a scam. Even if it's free, it took you 4 years or so to get some degree you can't use as it didn't open up job opportunities for you. For example, I majored in a language, the degree was sold to me as if I would be able to get a translation job or whatever - after you graduate, your language skills are still nowhere near good enough to get a translation job (as the learning materials are terrible and not based on real-life language usage), and translation jobs are disappearing anyways.

Also, the contents of a lot of classes could be condensed down into just a few days or a week (like Sophia), or could be learned much faster if the courses only re-organized when you learn what, and introduced the most modern concepts in learning psychology. I am fully convinced my 4 years of a language degree could have been condensed into 1 year if they had been smarter about the curriculum.

What requires a college degree in some countries, can be gotten with a license obtained through an exam (no formal schooling required) in other countries, or high school graduation plus a few continuing education courses not issued by a university. As an example, "immigration lawyer" and "public school teacher" are two such jobs. My mom makes $40 an hour in the US, no college education, she just had to take a 2 week course to get a license, and she had to have a driver's license.

I see where the comments about oversaturation are coming from. I come from a country where education is completely free including university. Long story short, there are no jobs unless you either start your own business, or get experience abroad before coming back to your country. The jobs that are there (including babysitting!) require official licenses or degrees, and in many cases (such as public school teaching) the licensure takes years longer than the same license in the US, Asia or several other countries. In contrast, when I moved to the US, I quickly noticed almost no one has a college degree, and it is much easier to find work in general for any type of job, including cashiering and warehouse work which I could not find in my home country.

It is now easier than ever to make your own business and earn a living with no education, or only self-taught stuff. You can get rich off Amazon dropshipping, Youtube, Patreon, OnlyFans, or Coursera content, self-publishing children's books, music making, you can get into direct contact with a Chinese factory to make your unique product to sell, without any kind of business degree or without "really" designing the product yourself. I met a high school student a couple years ago, who had an Amazon business earning him $1000 a week! He chose to not go to college, and by the time he graduated high school he had enough money to buy himself a property and rent out an office. Of course, he was able to do this because his parents gave him the first $1000 or so for his business and he read business advice books day and night.

However, I am one of the people who NEED degrees, because I want to work abroad and they don't give just anyone work visas. If you're in certain fields, you can side-step the need for a degree by getting years of work experience, but luck hasn't favored me in that department (see above about a lack of jobs in my country...)

[TopHatWombat]

So, what is a person to do?  I will use myself as an example. I have had a number of jobs—archaeologist (shovel bum), museum tour guide/educator/manager, financial advisor, teacher, and now accountant. A bachelor’s degree is required for all of the jobs that I have had. In other countries, that isn’t always the case. In England, one can leave school and go to work as a field archaeologist or an entry-level bookkeeper (not sure about the other jobs) and learn on the job, complete courses and certifications, and progress in your career into a professional role. Degree completion, top-up programs, and direct entry into master’s degree programs for skilled workers all offer real, viable ways to “move up”.

I'm going to push back on this a bit. In the US, one doesn't absolutely need a degree to have a career as an accountant or financial advisor. The minimum entry point for financial advising is the Series 65. Many an FA has started their career with that, and maybe some of the other FINRA exams. I personally know advisors with no degree and just their exams, and a couple have their ChFC. CFP requires a degree, but CFP is not the only path forward in that career.

Same for accounting. Yes, becoming a CPA requires a degree. However, only about 1/3 of accountants in the US have a CPA license, according to BLS and NASBA data. I had a very successful accounting career with no accounting degree, and no formal accounting education. At conferences and seminars, I met hundreds of practicing accountants that had no degree at all, but had successful careers in the space.

Does a degree accelerate one's career track in these fields? Yes. Does a degree open doors that wouldn't otherwise exist? Yes. Can a degree lead to a license/certification that increases lifetime earning potential? Yes, absolutely. But is a degree required for a successful career in accounting or financial planning? Nope, not at all.

[freeloader]

So, what is a person to do?  I will use myself as an example. I have had a number of jobs—archaeologist (shovel bum), museum tour guide/educator/manager, financial advisor, teacher, and now accountant. A bachelor’s degree is required for all of the jobs that I have had. In other countries, that isn’t always the case. In England, one can leave school and go to work as a field archaeologist or an entry-level bookkeeper (not sure about the other jobs) and learn on the job, complete courses and certifications, and progress in your career into a professional role. Degree completion, top-up programs, and direct entry into master’s degree programs for skilled workers all offer real, viable ways to “move up”.

I'm going to push back on this a bit. In the US, one doesn't absolutely need a degree to have a career as an accountant or financial advisor. The minimum entry point for financial advising is the Series 65. Many an FA has started their career with that, and maybe some of the other FINRA exams. I personally know advisors with no degree and just their exams, and a couple have their ChFC. CFP requires a degree, but CFP is not the only path forward in that career.

Same for accounting. Yes, becoming a CPA requires a degree. However, only about 1/3 of accountants in the US have a CPA license, according to BLS and NASBA data. I had a very successful accounting career with no accounting degree, and no formal accounting education. At conferences and seminars, I met hundreds of practicing accountants that had no degree at all, but had successful careers in the space.

Does a degree accelerate one's career track in these fields? Yes. Does a degree open doors that wouldn't otherwise exist? Yes. Can a degree lead to a license/certification that increases lifetime earning potential? Yes, absolutely. But is a degree required for a successful career in accounting or financial planning? Nope, not at all.

I had a really hard time breaking in as a financial advisor because my first BA was in history. I put in 100+ applications, had multiple interviews, and was basically told the same thing by all of them—we have too many applicants who have superior credentials and it isn’t worth the time and effort to train you when we can hire them.  I ended up getting on with one of the major national insurance companies in a field sales position, got my Series 6, and was able to transition to a more conventional advisor position, but that took a couple of years to do. 

You are right, it is not technically a requirement that you have a degree to become a financial advisor.  And there are jobs in accounting that don’t require a degree.  If you have connections or you are applying during the right job market, there will be opportunities. For many people, however, those opportunities don’t exist.  

Having said that, the systems are designed for people with degrees.  Can you start at a very undesirable employer, as a secretary or data entry person, or otherwise take an unconventional path to get started with some of these careers?  Yes, it is possible. It is also possible to become a lawyer without a degree.  My father was a dentist and had a friend who was a licensed physician who technically didn’t have any degrees; that doctor’s wife was a nurse practitioner who didn’t have any degrees. There are exceptions to almost every rule. 

The point of my now year old post was to note that our system has evolved to expect degrees and to make it vastly more difficult for people to succeed in large swaths of our economy without a degree and, in many cases, without a specific degree.  

The fact that the “rule” doesn’t apply in 100% of cases does not make it any less a rule. It just means it isn’t an immutable law of nature.

[mohelena02]

The reality is a lot of corporate roles require a check the box degree. I went back to school in my 30s for one. Did I feel like I needed it for my actual education, no, I am well read and have always kept my skills up to date, however, that didn't matter in the job market.