My definition of conservative

[bmills072200]

Learflyer, I'm glad you decided to put the oxygen on, I thought you were starting to black out. I have to write long because many of you are short on thought. I figure, eventually something will stick. OK, I was wrong. As for 9/11, yeah, my life was real good. I was stationed in Norfolk, VA. waiting in long lines to get on base, to get on the pier and then to get on the ship. We had a 3 tier security blanket and anyone on this website stationed there at the time knows how fun it was. I was Coxswain (boat driver for you) of our security boat for the ship, 6 on, 6 off for awhile + we would have other duties at times. Yeah, my life was real good. A 40 min or so drive to the ship became at least 1 hr and 30 mins and more at times. As for the stock market, yeah, I was in when it was good, after it was bad and before it was good again before it was horrendous, or something like that. Who do I thank for that? I actually moved money from Dodge & Cox just before the crash because I thought I saw it coming and so did my father-in-law. How did no one else. But I didn't take it all out so I'm getting hammered like everyone. As for GWB, when I saw that comment, I actually thought you were goading me because no one could be THAT illiterate, could they? And the lightbulb went on and I thought, maybe they are. So I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt realizing that you aren't goading me, you really are that illiterate. Where does that leave us???? Well heck, I don't know what to make of it. I actually feel kinda sorry for you. Is your 401k protected? Watch your back because you are a mark. I was starting to think you were the consigliore of this thread and ruddigore was Vinny Ga-Ga but maybe I was wrong. Regardless, here's the skinny on GWB. WORST PRESIDENT EVER! As for the bonuses, and here's the funny.........I thought everyone was ticked off at them, well w/the exception of those individuals and the circle of friends and family. And remember, concerning the circle, your either in or your out! Most of us are out, but we paid the cover, know what I mean (wink) :} Now, this is a lot for you to comprehend, it works better if you open your eyes when you open your ears. Did anyone ever teach you that? We can all rejoice ( I use that term loosely) in knowing Dubya is gone. Now, we just have to pick up the pieces to the puzzle and figure out where they go. As for the money, after all, it's always about the money, here's my plan. If your poor, hold on to what you got. If your middle class, dependent on what state you live in, you get to keep a good portion of what you've got. If your in the wealthy range, I've got good news for you too. Your going to help out your fellow man/woman and you'll feel good about it. You'll still get to waste natural resources like before, you just won't have as much $$$$ as you did before. This is the direction we need to move in. Trust me, this is a good thing. Now, don't you feel a little bit better?

This thread has really deteriorated... remember that you can have an intellectual debate about any subject without resorting to personal attacks, even the debates that we are most passionate about. In fact, the more personal the attacks become, the less likely it is that your point will be heard and understood.

For the record, Gary, I think you make many legitimate and insightful points. You are very passionate and you are obviously intelligent. Why then is it neccesary to get so personal? I know that you are mostly on your own in this debate, but that is all the more reason for you to stay level-headed in your responces...

I am enjoying reading your opinions and others that have posted, but everyone needs to take a step back and regain some civility...

[learflyer]

That's all liberals know. Talking points. Oh, and calling people names. I'm a free thinker. Illiterate? Look it up. How can I be illiterate? I answer your posts and I take exams for credit.

[Gary]

bmills, I think I am level headed. I like to get my digs in once in awhile, that's all. No real harm done. Learflyer came on like the stealth bomber all slap happy and claims either the Democrats or people like me are ruining his family. I just let him know his oxygen was low. I'm thinkin he's in a Lear jet or somethin and he's at too high an altitude, put on an oxygen mask was all I was thinkin. The consigliore thing wasn't right, I agree, he's not the Don of anything. Vinny Ga-Ga I think was right on though. Thank you for setting me straight. I am trying like heck to be respectful, I think you see me taking a step in the right direction. I am passionate about GWB and the damage he's caused. He is no hero to anyone in this country. He is the worst. By the way, did he take up golf again now that he's out of office? What a BS artist. His crew will go down on record as the biggest liars and scammers ever, slightly above Nixon and his dishonest crew. You have to admit bmills, it's hard to believe there are people out there that still think the economy was running smoothly until Obama got in office. I mean, doesn't that scare you the level of insanity out there. Shucks, there I go again, just can't help myself. One last item, let's give it up to the Siena Saints, my homeboys who gave all tonight and almost slayed the dragon. You can't ask more than that. They came w/their dancing shoes on!!!!

[learflyer]

not only is my cabin tight with o2, i've got o2 bottles as a backup. YOU sir are the one suffering from Hypoxia. Did you hear what he did on 60 minutes? He laughed while he was saying we were entering a depression. Then Kroft asked if he was punch drunk. Real nice. He is going to destroy this country.

[Farmerboy]

Not to mention his flap on Leno, who says things like that? Elitists

[Ruddigore]

This thread has really deteriorated... remember that you can have an intellectual debate about any subject without resorting to personal attacks, even the debates that we are most passionate about. In fact, the more personal the attacks become, the less likely it is that your point will be heard and understood.

Hear, hear! I think we get so overwhelmed with trying to get our point across that we end up resorting a form of political insult (I have to be careful about it too). After all, neither side can really understand the other. Liberals cannot see why conservatives are conservatives; conservatives cannot see why liberals are liberals.

We have a fine opportunity here to debate. If executed it with intelligence, grace, and civility, this thread could probably provide everyone with more useful information than would otherwise be possible.

[Gary]

Farmer Boy, your falling into the trap already. Have you been made???? What you have to realize is once your in THAT circle, you can get out. Realize also that much of what you have learned already is book smarts. You have not experienced the real, callous world yet as an adult. I believe you are a churchgoing conservative, correct? How does the church turns its back on the unfortunate? Is their stance that if your poor, you probably deserve it? Fill me in on this position cause I'm not quite getting it. Let me give you an example of REAL world stuff going on. First, everyone knows or should know that municipalities have a climate of hiring friends and family. Stay w/me for a sec. This is pretty common across the country I believe. Where I work, we have 3 immediate family members + the uncle and his son + his friends from school (2 brothers + 2 others) Their mom works at another municipality making big bucks. I could go on but you get the picture. There have been many articles written about nepotism in municipal gov't in NJ, like I said, it's a common theme. State gov't has a lot of the same but it is more open to others, at least it was until this mess came along. Federal gov't is a lot like municipalities. Since I have looked into federal employment I have talked to many, and I mean a lot of agency personnel concerning hiring and I hear the same thing over and over, friends and family is extremely common. My cousin works for Soc Security (10yrs) and he said connections are everything, especially family. I'd use him except he's having trouble moving up. My neighbor is a DEA agent w/Dept of ......and he concurs. His friend who is a Special Agent in Charge w/Dept of......... whom I talked to states the same. What is my point? I'm getting to it. When I worked at Sunoco, there were numerous connections there. W/out going into specifics, I witnessed first hand what happens when these connections were exercised. When a key job became available, the qualifications were hard & fast, you needed to be fully qualified as a Unit Operator, which takes 3-5 yrs. On top of that, there were other reqt's involved such as training in certain areas etc. Plus, and this was a hard and fast rule when we were hired, we were required to do a minimum of 3 yrs on a unit before we could bid off. I don't know what you know about a refinery but trouble brews instantly. We had major acid, propane, isobutane, butane, you name it leaks. Guys that worked there devoted their lives to that place didn't get the position, a young punk (that's what he was) got it. His dad was a union biggee (we weren't unionized) and was tight w/upper mgmt, believe it or not. What is surprising is his son had just over a year and a half on the job, hired just before me and was not remotely qualified for this position. I also witnessed the daughter of a top boss move up twice in a very short time just after she was hired. One of the biggees in HR, daughter of a big boss. What you need to understand about ALL of this is when people say poor people are just lazy, they don't want to work, keep all of this in mind. Doors open wide to the wealthy and connected. The poor do not have any of these doors open. They have NO contacts. And, the elitists know this. Their not stupid, just arrogant and deceitful. Try to keep this in your religious mind next time you think about discussing issues of work and the poor. Now the middle class faces this same dilemma, but at least they (me) can get hired. These good jobs w/the big pensions are not available to them and you don't need an education to get into many of them. Some of these jobs may not be high paying but they have great benefits such as where I work. Family medical coverage for $8.00 week just to name one. Don't you think the poor would jump at that given the chance? The federal gov't does have reqt's for Bachelor's degrees for jobs GS-6 and above but it is more open abelow that and in many cases, to the connected. Before anyone comes on here to tell you otherwise, especially about the federal government, I travel to Ft Dix/McGuire AFB and talk w/them quite often and trust me, they will tell you the same. Not to be a hipocrite, I am making my name known as well, that is the nature of the business. But I admit this is very common. Now, you won't find this in a book and many in academia do not want to discuss this. But it is real. What you are witnessing now, and for good reason, is the widespread panic of people for their jobs and livelihoods. The poor will only get shoved to the side more due to the competition for any job. You say you are a conservative so your church must run along those same lines. What do you think they would feel about this issue? I don't know if you saw the first Contender on TV. Guys coming from all backgrounds to fight for the big prize. When your first introduced to some of them, you might think, what a cocky bum. As you watched them, met their familiies and saw their little kids, you realize where they came from, what they went through and you should have respected the fight in their spirit. I'm sure many on here, the conservative whiners saw losers. Don't fall into that mentality. There's a war going on, young kids are dying supposedly in the name of spreading democracy. Why then are these suit and tie types worried about paying a little extra money to help everyone out. I don't agree w/everything Obama is doing, but I like the man personally and I think he is trying to right the ship. Don't give up on thh unfortunate people of which more and more are joining everyday. Facts (???????) and figures are great but they don't tell the whole story. I just gave you the REAL DEAL!

[Ruddigore]

You have not experienced the real, callous world yet as an adult. I believe you are a churchgoing conservative, correct? How does the church turns its back on the unfortunate? Is their stance that if your poor, you probably deserve it? Fill me in on this position cause I'm not quite getting it.

Any church that "turns its back on the unfortunate" isn't a very good one. A church that actually follows the Bible (see James 1:26-27) will be very much involved in bettering the plight of the poor. I am sure there are many churches that are not, but there still many that are involved.

[Farmerboy]

The poor do not have any of these doors open.

I agree that connections are important in securing government or corporate jobs. Cronyism is detestible in government circles, the most qualified people should get the jobs. In the corporate world cronyism is also present as you mentioned but because all businesses have a for-profit motive they will eventually hire qualified people or go belly up... or recieve a bailout!

However, I couldn't disagree more with your statement above. The poor have fewer doors certainly, but I maintain that if a person who grew up on the streets has a good work ethic and a sense of integrity they will not remain "poor". Even if he is not hired for the cush government do-nothing-and-get-paid-100G's-for-it job he/she will have opportunities or will create them. You are upset at the preferential treatment given to people who have connections. If government gets bigger are they going to do a better job?


Now for your church question. I am a member of a conservative church but we do work in our communities on a weekly basis. Here in the Treasure Valley a bunch of churches have banded together to provide food and housing for people who are down on their luck. However, the people are required to actively seek a job and have some basic rules they have to follow to recieve the aid. This initiative is working great and moving people from being a drain to a contribution to society in general.

I am not quite sure how to say so here it goes...

Gary, you live in New Jersey. I live in Idaho. You live in cesspool area of the US as far as politics and the church go. Is it any wonder you have problems like this? Here in Idaho things are vastly different. Even the "poor" here work hard and seek to better themselves and their families. The church, while not perfect, is active in the community and truely seeks to follow Christ. Have you ever lived in a Rocky Mountain state? It is clear from your previous posts that you are angry at the system in New Jersey. Move out the West with an open mind, it may save yoru sanity!

[gregjohnson]

.....think there is any REAL difference between Democrat/Republican, conservative/liberal or banker/business/politics/RELIGION - you are sadly mistaken. It's all about money, power and who controls both. The only difference in the number of the highway on which they travel. As an independent, I see the only hope for any true reform in this country is term limits, STRICT limits on campaign donations as well as a 3 to 6 month limit to campaigning. For example, as our congressmen serve for only 2 years, they start running for re-election the day they take office. I could supply an endless # of stories (see example below) to fit ANY of the above groups. They may start out on a different road, but they all end up in the same place.


THE INFLUENCE GAME: Mixing donations, earmarks
March 23, 2009 11:33 AM ET
Associated Press All Associated Press news

WASHINGTON (AP) - Rep. John Murtha celebrated his 35th anniversary as a congressman by getting an early start on his next campaign, staging an invitation-only fundraising luncheon for dozens of lobbyists and defense contractors at the private Army-Navy Country Club in Arlington, Va.

But last month's event, with tickets starting at $1,400, was missing one longtime friend: Paul Magliocchetti, the founder of a lobbying firm that over the past two decades has been one of Murtha's biggest sources of campaign donations.

Magliocchetti was absent because of what had happened three months earlier. At 7:30 one evening shortly after Thanksgiving, the FBI raided his lobbying firm, carting off records of the firm's political action committee and files of some of its lobbyists.

The work of those lobbyists took them often to Murtha's Capitol Hill office, as well as those of fellow Democrats Peter Visclosky of Indiana, Jim Moran of Virginia and others on the defense appropriations subcommittee that Murtha chairs. The FBI says the investigation is continuing, highlighting the close ties between special-interest spending provisions known as earmarks and the raising of campaign cash.

For Murtha, Visclosky and Moran, the practice has paved the way for their congressional careers. In 2007 and 2008, the three directed $137 million to defense contractors who were paying Magliocchetti's PMA Group, a lobbying firm, to get them government business. That kind of clout put the midsized 33-lobbyist firm into the big leagues, ranking it in the top 10 in billings among Washington lobbying shops..............