Don't misrepresent where you went to school.

[dfrecore]

dfrecore, I'm not questioning the schools. I specifically stated that some physicians are questioning online education and thus the schools. I heard one say that he won't train online NP students. rlw74, online vs. in person won't appear on a transcript. I'm speculating that if a physician looked down on online training, he or she would react differently depending on whether or not online appeared on a resume or c.v. Although I gave an example in a specific field, I'm really seeking opinions on whether or not people think the field of study affects whether online is relevant to the resume. We talk about credit laundering here. Is there such a thing as online laundering, a way to hide online from the resume? Saying Harvard Extension instead of Harvard seems like online laundering. Does the spirit of full disclosure mean that online should be on a resume? My only goal is to add some nuances to what I think is an interesting discussion.

I wasn't saying YOU particularly, but anyone.

[brodie]

While I accept this premise, I think it can easily get pretty tricky especially the further away you get from the rather well established "extension" or  "Global Campus" programs and branch campuses of various reputes. Those are cut and dry, Harvard Extension isn't really Harvard as most people imagine it, Purdue University-Calumet isn't really Purdue in an even more real sense, and UNC-Asheville is even less related to UNC-Chapel Hill than any of the rest. This is straightforward, but that isn't always the case. 

Take for example the University of Iowa. A name brand school that is mildly prestigious insofar as any school with a billion dollar endowment, lots of famous alumni, at least one top ranked grad program, and a 70,000 seat football stadium has prestige)... a degree from Iowa isn't Harvard, but it should open some doors. Iowa operates an online/off campus program for non-traditional students through it's University College, this program is only open to students who are over age 22 with some college credit and provides them with a general studies program to earn a degree. This is very similar to some of the programs you mention, and I cannot imagine it is competitive. However the University of Iowa lumps the University College in with it's other academic units (College of Liberal Arts, College of Education, etc.), someone earning a degree from the college gets to go to Iowa City and graduate with everyone else. What are those graduates? Are they Iowa alumni? A lower class of Iowa alumni? Does one general studies degree from Iowa mean more or less to grad schools and employers (especially outside of the state of Iowa) than another? Should these people put "University College" on their resume even though you wouldn't put "College of Liberal Arts and Sciences"?

And then, of course, there are those employers who don't believe in the value of any degree not earned in person. If I attend Arizona State online, should I mention that? Some employers may think it's misleading to claim I went to Arizona State if I've never set foot in Tempe. Should I ensure that they have the opportunity to weed me out on that basis? This isn't the same as being dishonest, but it gets to some of the same issues more broadly about the way that this can be kind of arbitrary in certain cases.

It's not tricky at all.  Just write on your resume what your diploma says.  There, simple.

And no, you don't have to put that you went online, if the diploma doesn't say it was online.  Just because someone might "think" that you have to go to the actual campus to get the degree, doesn't negate what the school itself says.  If a school determines that their online courses are as good as their in-person courses, and puts their name on them, then that's good enough.  It's not you who is portraying something a certain way, and you can't predict what someone might think.

Just write what it says on the diploma, and don't worry about the rest.

AND, I can't imagine that the majority of time (probably 90% in most industries), anyone will ever even ask about college.  Employers want to know that you can do the job, and most of the time, that's proven through your work history.  THAT is what employers care about.  HR might care about the degree, and they may check to make sure you have the degree you claim, but they're not going to question every course and see where you took them.

No, it very much IS tricky. What should this person write on their resume?



What about this guy?




And this gentleman? 



If your answer was "University of Michigan", "University of Washington" or "Indiana University", congratulations! You just let three people get away with claiming to have degrees from highly selective, top 75 USNWR ranked colleges even though they went to lowly regarded branch campuses (Dearborn, Tacoma, and South Bend respectively). 

We agree here, everyone should be upfront about their degree. But I am more taking issue with your contention about Harvard Extension. After all, the diploma one gets from it is exactly the same as the one given to students of various Harvard colleges and it is no different in concept of execution than the program I described at the University of Iowa... the only difference being that nobody is writing overwrought Atlantic articles about the Iowa program. I would encourage you to consider why this is the case, and what it says about the entire premise of online education catering to traditional students in the first place. The message to me seems clear: Harvard may give you a degree but it can't really be a Harvard degree unless it came from one of the other 11 colleges of the university because those aren't programs designed for working adults or delivered primarily online. If you can't see that, you're missing the forest for the trees.

[dfrecore]

We agree here, everyone should be upfront about their degree. But I am more taking issue with your contention about Harvard Extension. After all, the diploma one gets from it is exactly the same as the one given to students of various Harvard colleges and it is no different in concept of execution than the program I described at the University of Iowa... the only difference being that nobody is writing overwrought Atlantic articles about the Iowa program. Indeed, Harvard itself has told Extension graduates to list "Harvard University" on their resumes. So the question is, what is the actual difference here?

Actually, Harvard Extension School specifically tells people what they're allowed to write on their resume.

[brodie]

We agree here, everyone should be upfront about their degree. But I am more taking issue with your contention about Harvard Extension. After all, the diploma one gets from it is exactly the same as the one given to students of various Harvard colleges and it is no different in concept of execution than the program I described at the University of Iowa... the only difference being that nobody is writing overwrought Atlantic articles about the Iowa program. Indeed, Harvard itself has told Extension graduates to list "Harvard University" on their resumes. So the question is, what is the actual difference here?

Actually, Harvard Extension School specifically tells people what they're allowed to write on their resume.

It tells them that there are two specific forms they can use:

"Bachelor of Liberal Arts, Harvard Extension School"

or

"Bachelor of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies, Harvard University"

Again, I would encourage you to dig deeper into the links on the first page of this thread to see what the complaint is here about Harvard Extension. Here's a comment from one of the Harvard blogs:


The fact is that HES students are not part of the greater life of the University the way Harvard College students or grad students are – they are not part of the Student Councils, the orchestra or theater groups, the athletic teams, nor do they live in the residential colleges. They often do not list the fact on their resumes they are in fact Extension School students. Incidentally, no one at Harvard College or the graduate schools keep arguing that they are legitimate Harvard graduates like the HES students do.

There is your answer. The issue here isn't that Harvard Extension School isn't Harvard, it is as much a part of Harvard University as Harvard College is. The issue is that Harvard College alumni do not like the idea of someone who never lived in a dorm room, never wrote for the Crimson, never pahked their cah in the Hahvahd Yahd claiming to be a part of their community. In my first post in this thread I asked if someone should list that they went to Arizona State University online and the answer was an overwhelming "no". But ask yourself, is the ASU grad "part of the greater life of the University"? Does the Starbucks barista in Nebraska getting a degree from ASU take part in the student councils, the orchestra, the theater groups, the athletic teams? If not, then what makes it different than Harvard Extension? What makes it less okay for a real dyed in the wool Sun Devil to say "GTFO, you're not a part of my school" when they come across an online alumnus not openly admitting that fact?


I know Degree Forum is more or less based on a fairly niche model of college that revolves around three or four highly specific universities and that this topic is a bit outside the realm of the usual discussion here. But I think it's pretty illustrative. There is still immense bias when it comes to online education and toward non-traditional degree seekers. And while it is more or less impossible for someone to be denigrated as an inferior breed of Charter Oak State College alum, this is a real potential issue as distance learning continues to expand to more and more traditional and prestigious universities. People should remain cognizant of that at all times and try to fight theses biases when they encounter them in the name of promoting a more equitable college solution for all of us. 

So no, don't try to convince anyone that a business degree from CSU-Global is a business degree from the more highly accredited CSU. But when it comes to whether or not some kid with a diploma that looks like this (ie the same as any other Harvard diploma):



Well, I don't really agree with those who want them to be relegated to second class status. And nobody invested in non-traditional education methods should, imo.

[Life Long Learning]

While I accept this premise, I think it can easily get pretty tricky especially the further away you get from the rather well established "extension" or  "Global Campus" programs and branch campuses of various reputes. Those are cut and dry, Harvard Extension isn't really Harvard as most people imagine it, Purdue University-Calumet isn't really Purdue in an even more real sense, and UNC-Asheville is even less related to UNC-Chapel Hill than any of the rest. This is straightforward, but that isn't always the case. 

Take for example the University of Iowa. A name brand school that is mildly prestigious insofar as any school with a billion dollar endowment, lots of famous alumni, at least one top ranked grad program, and a 70,000 seat football stadium has prestige)... a degree from Iowa isn't Harvard, but it should open some doors. Iowa operates an online/off campus program for non-traditional students through it's University College, this program is only open to students who are over age 22 with some college credit and provides them with a general studies program to earn a degree. This is very similar to some of the programs you mention, and I cannot imagine it is competitive. However the University of Iowa lumps the University College in with it's other academic units (College of Liberal Arts, College of Education, etc.), someone earning a degree from the college gets to go to Iowa City and graduate with everyone else. What are those graduates? Are they Iowa alumni? A lower class of Iowa alumni? Does one general studies degree from Iowa mean more or less to grad schools and employers (especially outside of the state of Iowa) than another? Should these people put "University College" on their resume even though you wouldn't put "College of Liberal Arts and Sciences"?

And then, of course, there are those employers who don't believe in the value of any degree not earned in person. If I attend Arizona State online, should I mention that? Some employers may think it's misleading to claim I went to Arizona State if I've never set foot in Tempe. Should I ensure that they have the opportunity to weed me out on that basis? This isn't the same as being dishonest, but it gets to some of the same issues more broadly about the way that this can be kind of arbitrary in certain cases.

It's not tricky at all.  Just write on your resume what your diploma says.  There, simple.

And no, you don't have to put that you went online, if the diploma doesn't say it was online.  Just because someone might "think" that you have to go to the actual campus to get the degree, doesn't negate what the school itself says.  If a school determines that their online courses are as good as their in-person courses, and puts their name on them, then that's good enough.  It's not you who is portraying something a certain way, and you can't predict what someone might think.

Just write what it says on the diploma, and don't worry about the rest.

AND, I can't imagine that the majority of time (probably 90% in most industries), anyone will ever even ask about college.  Employers want to know that you can do the job, and most of the time, that's proven through your work history.  THAT is what employers care about.  HR might care about the degree, and they may check to make sure you have the degree you claim, but they're not going to question every course and see where you took them.

No, it very much IS tricky. What should this person write on their resume?



What about this guy?




And this gentleman? 



If your answer was "University of Michigan", "University of Washington" or "Indiana University", congratulations! You just let three people get away with claiming to have degrees from highly selective, top 75 USNWR ranked colleges even though they went to lowly regarded branch campuses (Dearborn, Tacoma, and South Bend respectively). 

We agree here, everyone should be upfront about their degree. But I am more taking issue with your contention about Harvard Extension. After all, the diploma one gets from it is exactly the same as the one given to students of various Harvard colleges and it is no different in concept of execution than the program I described at the University of Iowa... the only difference being that nobody is writing overwrought Atlantic articles about the Iowa program. I would encourage you to consider why this is the case, and what it says about the entire premise of online education catering to traditional students in the first place. The message to me seems clear: Harvard may give you a degree but it can't really be a Harvard degree unless it came from one of the other 11 colleges of the university because those aren't programs designed for working adults or delivered primarily online. If you can't see that, you're missing the forest for the trees.

A diploma means nothing! Offical Transcripts means everything!   They are NOT the same.

[alexf.1990]

It tells them that there are two specific forms they can use:

"Bachelor of Liberal Arts, Harvard Extension School"

or

"Bachelor of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies, Harvard University"

Again, I would encourage you to dig deeper into the links on the first page of this thread to see what the complaint is here about Harvard Extension. Here's a comment from one of the Harvard blogs:


The fact is that HES students are not part of the greater life of the University the way Harvard College students or grad students are – they are not part of the Student Councils, the orchestra or theater groups, the athletic teams, nor do they live in the residential colleges. They often do not list the fact on their resumes they are in fact Extension School students. Incidentally, no one at Harvard College or the graduate schools keep arguing that they are legitimate Harvard graduates like the HES students do.

There is your answer. The issue here isn't that Harvard Extension School isn't Harvard, it is as much a part of Harvard University as Harvard College is. The issue is that Harvard College alumni do not like the idea of someone who never lived in a dorm room, never wrote for the Crimson, never pahked their cah in the Hahvahd Yahd claiming to be a part of their community. In my first post in this thread I asked if someone should list that they went to Arizona State University online and the answer was an overwhelming "no". But ask yourself, is the ASU grad "part of the greater life of the University"? Does the Starbucks barista in Nebraska getting a degree from ASU take part in the student councils, the orchestra, the theater groups, the athletic teams? If not, then what makes it different than Harvard Extension? What makes it less okay for a real dyed in the wool Sun Devil to say "GTFO, you're not a part of my school" when they come across an online alumnus not openly admitting that fact?


I know Degree Forum is more or less based on a fairly niche model of college that revolves around three or four highly specific universities and that this topic is a bit outside the realm of the usual discussion here. But I think it's pretty illustrative. There is still immense bias when it comes to online education and toward non-traditional degree seekers. And while it is more or less impossible for someone to be denigrated as an inferior breed of Charter Oak State College alum, this is a real potential issue as distance learning continues to expand to more and more traditional and prestigious universities. People should remain cognizant of that at all times and try to fight theses biases when they encounter them in the name of promoting a more equitable college solution for all of us. 

So no, don't try to convince anyone that a business degree from CSU-Global is a business degree from the more highly accredited CSU. But when it comes to whether or not some kid with a diploma that looks like this (ie the same as any other Harvard diploma):



Well, I don't really agree with those who want them to be relegated to second class status. And nobody invested in non-traditional education methods should, imo.

HES claiming their degrees are in "Extension Studies" was a real hanging point for me when I was deciding whether or not I wanted to attend. They don't use "Extension Studies" in any of the promotional material, and they are consistent in their claims that HES courses are as rigorous as their HC or HBS counterparts. Putting HES on a second tier also runs counter to the principles of the new "One Harvard" campaign. On top of that, successful HES students are allowed to cross register for an HBS or HLS course towards the end of their degree. Admitted HES students can also attend the same Summer School courses that students from the other Harvard schools attend. The effort to relegate HES to a second tier has more to do with protecting Harvard's brand and the piles of cash the other schools bring in.

I decided not to attend HES for my undergrad, but I do plan on attending HES to get an MLA in Finance. Luckily, the MLA diploma is in latin, so nobody will be able to read it anyway. If the issue comes up in conversation, I will have no problem claiming that I earned a Masters in Finance from Harvard Extension School.

[sanantone]

While I accept this premise, I think it can easily get pretty tricky especially the further away you get from the rather well established "extension" or  "Global Campus" programs and branch campuses of various reputes. Those are cut and dry, Harvard Extension isn't really Harvard as most people imagine it, Purdue University-Calumet isn't really Purdue in an even more real sense, and UNC-Asheville is even less related to UNC-Chapel Hill than any of the rest. This is straightforward, but that isn't always the case. 

Take for example the University of Iowa. A name brand school that is mildly prestigious insofar as any school with a billion dollar endowment, lots of famous alumni, at least one top ranked grad program, and a 70,000 seat football stadium has prestige)... a degree from Iowa isn't Harvard, but it should open some doors. Iowa operates an online/off campus program for non-traditional students through it's University College, this program is only open to students who are over age 22 with some college credit and provides them with a general studies program to earn a degree. This is very similar to some of the programs you mention, and I cannot imagine it is competitive. However the University of Iowa lumps the University College in with it's other academic units (College of Liberal Arts, College of Education, etc.), someone earning a degree from the college gets to go to Iowa City and graduate with everyone else. What are those graduates? Are they Iowa alumni? A lower class of Iowa alumni? Does one general studies degree from Iowa mean more or less to grad schools and employers (especially outside of the state of Iowa) than another? Should these people put "University College" on their resume even though you wouldn't put "College of Liberal Arts and Sciences"?

And then, of course, there are those employers who don't believe in the value of any degree not earned in person. If I attend Arizona State online, should I mention that? Some employers may think it's misleading to claim I went to Arizona State if I've never set foot in Tempe. Should I ensure that they have the opportunity to weed me out on that basis? This isn't the same as being dishonest, but it gets to some of the same issues more broadly about the way that this can be kind of arbitrary in certain cases.

It's not tricky at all.  Just write on your resume what your diploma says.  There, simple.

And no, you don't have to put that you went online, if the diploma doesn't say it was online.  Just because someone might "think" that you have to go to the actual campus to get the degree, doesn't negate what the school itself says.  If a school determines that their online courses are as good as their in-person courses, and puts their name on them, then that's good enough.  It's not you who is portraying something a certain way, and you can't predict what someone might think.

Just write what it says on the diploma, and don't worry about the rest.

AND, I can't imagine that the majority of time (probably 90% in most industries), anyone will ever even ask about college.  Employers want to know that you can do the job, and most of the time, that's proven through your work history.  THAT is what employers care about.  HR might care about the degree, and they may check to make sure you have the degree you claim, but they're not going to question every course and see where you took them.

No, it very much IS tricky. What should this person write on their resume?



What about this guy?




And this gentleman? 



If your answer was "University of Michigan", "University of Washington" or "Indiana University", congratulations! You just let three people get away with claiming to have degrees from highly selective, top 75 USNWR ranked colleges even though they went to lowly regarded branch campuses (Dearborn, Tacoma, and South Bend respectively). 

We agree here, everyone should be upfront about their degree. But I am more taking issue with your contention about Harvard Extension. After all, the diploma one gets from it is exactly the same as the one given to students of various Harvard colleges and it is no different in concept of execution than the program I described at the University of Iowa... the only difference being that nobody is writing overwrought Atlantic articles about the Iowa program. I would encourage you to consider why this is the case, and what it says about the entire premise of online education catering to traditional students in the first place. The message to me seems clear: Harvard may give you a degree but it can't really be a Harvard degree unless it came from one of the other 11 colleges of the university because those aren't programs designed for working adults or delivered primarily online. If you can't see that, you're missing the forest for the trees.

Dearborn and Tacoma are on the diplomas.

The main issue people have with Harvard Extension is its admissions requirements. Even though your transcript and diploma say Harvard University, "Extension Studies" makes it obvious that you attended Harvard Extension. Harvard has an online public health program that no one complains about because it has the same requirements as the on-campus program, and it is housed in the same department. 

The decision makers at Harvard made the decision to distinguish between their traditional and non-traditional students. That is a turn off for me. Harvard administrators have made it clear that Extension students are second class; this is done to protect their rankings. They've even gone out of their way to tell Extension students how to list their degrees. I proudly chose a lower-ranked school because I get to earn the same degree as everyone else and had to meet the same admissions requirements. I can put University of Florida on my resume and benefit from its reputation instead of having to brand my degree with a second class designation that tells everyone that I'm not as good as the on-campus students.

---

There are a few degrees that specify it's online (iMBA from University of Illinois via Coursera) but most are just degrees. People are under no obligation to state if it was online unless the degree or transcript specifies so. I'm sure a large proportion traditional B & M students now supplement part of their curriculum with some online courses and some nontraditional online students supplement with some but-in-seat courses. Heck, right now I'm doing an "online" program but well over half of my degree is transfer credits from in person courses from B & M and military.

---

If one was obligated to disclose that some/most/all of their courses were online, should other students disclose which classes they didn't show up to except on test day or which one's they slept during? Nowadays, an increasing amount of courses incorporate a blended learning approach anyway.

---

If an employer specifically asked about the nature of my education, I wouldn't lie. Thus far, no employers have cared that I'm pursuing my degree online and have actually seen that as a plus since it means I'm geographically flexible.

I think the statistic now is that the majority of college students have taken at least one online, blended, or hybrid course. Two of my doctoral courses ended up being blended, but they weren't advertised as blended.

[clep3705]

Transcripts should indicate if lab courses are conducted online. Clicking a virtual burette isn't the same as titrating a buffered solution in a real laboratory.

[a2jc4life]

Also, if you completed a non-credit certificate at Columbia, then don't tell everyone that you studied business at Columbia. Tyra Banks got herself into trouble by making people believe that she was attending Harvard Business School when it was only an executive certificate program. 

We had a pastor who did this.   He represented himself as having been to seminary, when really he attended the undergraduate program at the school associated with the seminary.  I'd have had no problem with hiring a pastor who hadn't been to seminary.  I have a significant problem with hiring a pastor who lies.

[Prloko]

Actually, Harvard Extension School specifically tells people what they're allowed to write on their resume.

Sorry, but this is an asinine comment. A resume is just another marketing tool just like a television or print ad. You can represent your education and experience any which way you like so long as you don't LIE or try to misrepresent yourself. Harvard can tell people whatever they want, but they can't compel speech.

Here is a blurb STRAIGHT from the HES website: "Balancing life with the rigors of the Harvard classroom will be challenging. It’ll also be deeply rewarding. In the end, you will have earned a Harvard credential that you can hold with pride. "

https://www.extension.harvard.edu/about-us/why-hes

They seem to be a bit liberal in their discussion of this as a HARVARD CREDENTIAL themselves in their marketing material. Seems a bit hypocritical for them to sell it as such, then tell people they can't say they went to Harvard.

Caveat, none of this excuses someone of trying to deceive people and make them falsely believing that they graduated from Harvard College, HBS, Kennedy, or any of the traditional competitive schools of Harvard. That is straight out dishonest and a Harvard alum will call you out in a second. So don't do it.

---

I

Also, if you completed a non-credit certificate at Columbia, then don't tell everyone that you studied business at Columbia. Tyra Banks got herself into trouble by making people believe that she was attending Harvard Business School when it was only an executive certificate program. 

A politician also got himself into hot water when he wasn't straight forward about attending Harvard Extension. All of this came to mind because this cop tried to brag to me about getting accepted to Harvard. It turns out he went to Harvard Extension which does not have competitive admission. He was just trying to make it seem like he was better than me because we don't exactly get along. Nice try. I know the difference. 

Like her or hate her, Ann Coulter hilariously called out Keith Olberman after he tried to belittle someone for their education and himself boasting that he went to Cornell. She quickly reminded everyone he went to the "other Cornell", the non-ivy league extension similar to HES.

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2009-03-04.html