DBA Degree from UCAM by Westford

[doyouhowdo1]

I agree everything you have said. But is acutally illegal to call myself a Doctor even after I done the DBA with UCAM? The reason why I'm asking even tho you said so is because I just got a replied from the Westford that after you finish the DBA with them, you can call yourself a doctor. I'm now going to send emails to the university and see what they say. I will get you posted.

Each country has their rules of what you can call yourself and not. I cannot say what you can be called or not because I do not know where you want to go or where you are.
I just tell you that there is a law of who can call themselves doctor in Spain. In Spain is the people that finish a regulated studies of PhD. This from the legal perspective. Practically in the country outside of academic circles nobody (or nearly nobody) call themselves doctor even if you have the degree. Can happen .... but not usual. People define themselves by their relationship to others and sometimes for the working position. Even people that studied medicine sometimes call themselves doctors, doctor as a profession not academic degree, even without a PhD an most of the time there is no problem. I've seen sometimes some comments and jokes... or asking the title of the thesis. Nothing else other some humbling comment very sparingly from somebody that has a PhD and wants to mark territory. Another thing is if you start to write DR. in front of your name. Then you are in murky territory.
Usually the law require that in the territory where the degree was given it has official standing to reciprocate. Again each country is different. An I would say that is different to say I made a DBA in XXXX uni or I have a DBA than I am Doctor YYYYY. They sound similar, but are different. I you can get a way to have the degree recognized as valid where you spend your time, then is great.
Why you don't ask them if you can make a formal PhD?
In the documents you passed, in concrete in https://ibb.co/4g80XCG , it clearly say "secretaria de títulos propios" under the name of the university.
My guess is that the "titulo propio" will be more flexible to do and with the timelines, support and structure and the Academic will be very rigid and probably the first year of classes will be in Spanish.

I say it again. The study itself appears to be the same as the academic one in structure and everything, the university is perfectly good. Subjectively, the only problem from an USA perspective can be in agency that has to evaluated it back home. If the evaluating agencies evaluate the studies as per content should perfectly fine since the quality appears to be there. Does not appear to pay to get a degree. To me appears as if you pass, you earned. If they evaluate the bureaucratic structure you can run into problems.  Still if you do not have any PhD I would go for an academic one if you already have an academic master degree.
As far as I know to study (an only study) you do not need to have your studies officially evaluated by the Spanish government. The university can do their own evaluation (at least as far as I know). Be aware that academic PhD can be a lot of work... and drain hours like mad.

Understand. It bascially mean that at least in Spain, it is illegal to call myself a doctor but in other country, it will depends on their policy. My plan to do this DBA is only because if I work hard it can finish the whole Master + DBA in 2 years. Then I will look for a better job. Later on in life, hopefully I can get into a ALL BUT DISSERATION PHD degree online by using this DBA.

Everything will be taught in English and required me to write around 40000 to 50000 words for my thesis. The company Westford is a UAE company and I'm going to study with them fully online.

UCAM still haven't provide me a update yet. All they do is forwarding my email to others.  Still waiting for my answer from them.

---

I come from Hong Kong, but have multiple citizenship. So I can move around if I wants. Which is why I'm not worrying about immigration, getting a government jobs etc. All I need is a Doctorate degree to get a better job if I choose to move to NZ/AUZ or UK.

Hmm, reminds me, I previously loved listening to music from Grasshopper, Four Heavenly Kings, Twins, etc (Music era in the 1990s). Haven't listened to Asian music in a long time... I also visited HK at least 15 times since 2003/2004 right after SARS, as it's my gateway to Asia when I travel.  

Anyways, you aren't going for academic, government, positions that may require additional education, etc, so... I don't get what the issue is?  Your main goal is similar to mine, getting the learning/knowledge gaps.  A title isn't worth the paper it's on, I would just finish this DBA, have it evaluated by NARIC (AUZ, NZ, or UK, doesn't matter which one).

In brief, for the academic evaluation... If it's favorable, great, if not, let it be...

You are right, I don't have much issue. It was a issue when I look around in the forum as people say that unoffical degree isn't really good etc. Then I start worrying.  I even decline the MBA top up degree from University of Plymouth because of this DBA. I might do this but I still have a chance to give this up as well because I haven't pay for the DBA's fees yet.

[bjcheung77]

You are right, I don't have much issue. It was a issue when I look around in the forum as people say that unoffical degree isn't really good etc. Then I start worrying.  I even decline the MBA top up degree from University of Plymouth because of this DBA. I might do this but I still have a chance to give this up as well because I haven't pay for the DBA's fees yet.

Hmm, interesting, I see, if you haven't paid for the DBA fees yet, you may want to change your mind and do what another HK'er has done... If you have a good translation interface for Spanish to English such as DeepL or Google Translate, you may want to do a DBA, PhD (HR) double combo for under $5K USD and have them both evaluated by Validential, then call it a day! Or use them for learning and knowledge gaps (what I like to use them for, similar to what I am using ENEB for). Depends on you...

If you want to continue onward to some ABD (All But Dissertation), Captiol Tech or Walden, both have a program that may accept your credits towards their PhD programs.  Capitol needs a valid NACES evaluator, Walden doesn't as it's internal for them... both can potentially be completed under $19K.  Here are my post, make sure to click the last link as it directs you to the post regarding the HK'er who got the degrees evaluated with Validential: https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Thread-...#pid399607

[doyouhowdo1]

You are right, I don't have much issue. It was a issue when I look around in the forum as people say that unoffical degree isn't really good etc. Then I start worrying.  I even decline the MBA top up degree from University of Plymouth because of this DBA. I might do this but I still have a chance to give this up as well because I haven't pay for the DBA's fees yet.

Hmm, interesting, I see, if you haven't paid for the DBA fees yet, you may want to change your mind and do what another HK'er has done... If you have a good translation interface for Spanish to English such as DeepL or Google Translate, you may want to do a DBA, PhD (HR) double combo for under $5K USD and have them both evaluated by Validential, then call it a day! Or use them for learning and knowledge gaps (what I like to use them for, similar to what I am using ENEB for). Depends on you...

If you want to continue onward to some ABD (All But Dissertation), Captiol Tech or Walden, both have a program that may accept your credits towards their PhD programs.  Capitol needs a valid NACES evaluator, Walden doesn't as it's internal for them... both can potentially be completed under $19K.  Here are my post, make sure to click the last link as it directs you to the post regarding the HK'er who got the degrees evaluated with Validential: https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Thread-...#pid399607

Yea, I just want to see whats my other choices, which I don't have much as my current highest education is PGdip.

I look at New Zealand offical evaluate https://www2.nzqa.govt.nz/international/...-qual/iqa/

The below is the requirement:
1) a tertiary or vocational upper-secondary qualification
2) completed programmes of study
3) qualifications awarded by a provider that is recognised nationally and accredited by the relevant government authority in the country of award and country of delivery
4) a minimum of 400 notional learning hours (approximately 10 weeks of full time academic study).

Do you think that this DBA fit  qualifications awarded by a provider that is recognised nationally and accredited by the relevant government authority in the country of award and country of delivery?

---

I agree everything you have said. But is acutally illegal to call myself a Doctor even after I done the DBA with UCAM? The reason why I'm asking even tho you said so is because I just got a replied from the Westford that after you finish the DBA with them, you can call yourself a doctor. I'm now going to send emails to the university and see what they say. I will get you posted.

Each country has their rules of what you can call yourself and not. I cannot say what you can be called or not because I do not know where you want to go or where you are.
I just tell you that there is a law of who can call themselves doctor in Spain. In Spain is the people that finish a regulated studies of PhD. This from the legal perspective. Practically in the country outside of academic circles nobody (or nearly nobody) call themselves doctor even if you have the degree. Can happen .... but not usual. People define themselves by their relationship to others and sometimes for the working position. Even people that studied medicine sometimes call themselves doctors, doctor as a profession not academic degree, even without a PhD an most of the time there is no problem. I've seen sometimes some comments and jokes... or asking the title of the thesis. Nothing else other some humbling comment very sparingly from somebody that has a PhD and wants to mark territory. Another thing is if you start to write DR. in front of your name. Then you are in murky territory.
Usually the law require that in the territory where the degree was given it has official standing to reciprocate. Again each country is different. An I would say that is different to say I made a DBA in XXXX uni or I have a DBA than I am Doctor YYYYY. They sound similar, but are different. I you can get a way to have the degree recognized as valid where you spend your time, then is great.
Why you don't ask them if you can make a formal PhD?
In the documents you passed, in concrete in https://ibb.co/4g80XCG , it clearly say "secretaria de títulos propios" under the name of the university.
My guess is that the "titulo propio" will be more flexible to do and with the timelines, support and structure and the Academic will be very rigid and probably the first year of classes will be in Spanish.

I say it again. The study itself appears to be the same as the academic one in structure and everything, the university is perfectly good. Subjectively, the only problem from an USA perspective can be in agency that has to evaluated it back home. If the evaluating agencies evaluate the studies as per content should perfectly fine since the quality appears to be there. Does not appear to pay to get a degree. To me appears as if you pass, you earned. If they evaluate the bureaucratic structure you can run into problems.  Still if you do not have any PhD I would go for an academic one if you already have an academic master degree.
As far as I know to study (an only study) you do not need to have your studies officially evaluated by the Spanish government. The university can do their own evaluation (at least as far as I know). Be aware that academic PhD can be a lot of work... and drain hours like mad.

This is what the UCAM reply me:
"Firstly, please allow me to explain you about the differences between a PhD and a doctorate. While both a PhD and a doctorate are doctoral-level degrees, there are some key differences between the two. One of the main differences is that a PhD is typically an academic degree, while a doctorate is a professional. Additionally, a PhD is highly theoretical and research-focused, while a professional doctorate is practical and geared toward applying research to specific professional settings.

Despite their differences, there are also some similarities between a PhD and a doctorate. Both degrees require significant research, critical thinking, and independent study. They are both highly respected and recognised as top-level degrees in their respective fields, and both confer the title of “Doctor” upon completion."

[Kab]

I kindly invite you or UCAM to post the law and article that allow a "titulo propio" wear the title of doctor.

If you want you can pass me the email privately or copy it here so we can see how they articulate it.

---

I can post this:
https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2011-2541
Is the web page that regulates doctor level studies in Spain.
May be you find the first artice interesting:
"Artículo 1. Objeto.

El presente Real Decreto tiene por objeto regular la organización de los estudios de doctorado correspondientes al tercer ciclo de las enseñanzas universitarias oficiales conducentes a la obtención del Título de Doctor o Doctora, que tendrá carácter oficial y validez en todo el territorio nacional."
Google translation:
"Article 1. Object.

The purpose of this Royal Decree is to regulate the organization of doctoral studies corresponding to the third cycle of official university education leading to obtaining the Doctorate Title, which will be official and valid throughout the national territory."

Merrian Webster definition of doctorate:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doctorate
-> the degree, title, or rank of a doctor<-
The royal dictionary of Spanish language definition of "doctorado"
https://dle.rae.es/doctorado
1. m. Grado de doctor.

2. m. Estudios necesarios para obtener un doctorado.

3. m. Conocimiento acabado y pleno en alguna materia.

Google translation:
1. m. PhD degree.

2. m. Studies required to obtain a doctorate.

3. m. Complete and full knowledge in some subject.

Definition of Doctor, from the Royal academy of Spanish Language:
doctor, ra

Del lat. mediev. doctor, -oris; en lat. 'profesor', der. de docēre 'enseñar'.

1. m. y f. Persona que ha recibido el más alto grado académico universitario.

2. m. y f. Título particular que da la Iglesia católica a algunos santos en atención al especial valor de la doctrina de sus escritos.

3. m. y f. Médico u otro profesional especializado en alguna técnica terapéutica, como el dentista, el podólogo, etc. U. frec. como tratamiento. Doctor, ¿cuándo notaré mejoría?

4. f. coloq. p. us. Mujer del doctor.

5. f. coloq. p. us. Mujer del médico.

6. f. coloq. desus. Mujer que blasona de sabia y entendida.

doctor, ra arquitecto, ta

1. m. y f. doctor en arquitectura.

doctor, ra ingeniero, ra

1. m. y f. doctor en ingeniería.

capelo de doctor

Again the google translation:
doctor ra

From the lat. medieval. doctor, -oris; in the T. 'professor', right. from docēre 'to teach'.

1. m. and f. Person who has received the highest university academic degree.

2. m. and f. Particular title given by the Catholic Church to some saints in attention to the special value of the doctrine of their writings.

3. m. and f. Doctor or other professional specialized in a therapeutic technique, such as a dentist, podiatrist, etc. U. freq. as treatment. Doctor, when will I notice improvement?

4. f. coloq. p. us. Doctor woman.

5. f. coloq. p. us. Doctor woman.

6. f. coloq. his. Woman who boasts of wise and understood.

doctor, ra architect, ta

1. m. and f. doctor of architecture

doctor, ra engineer, ra

1. m. and f. engineering doctor.

doctor's hat

---

And here we have a more recent law. Ley Orgánica 2/2023, de 22 de marzo, del Sistema Universitario. Which talks about the unievrsity system. It talks about doctorates and Titulos propios.
https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2023-7500
You can use google to read it if you are interested.
I always see that Doctorado, doctor and uses of this degree go at academic level.
Art 3 part g
"g) La elaboración y aprobación de planes de estudio conducentes a la obtención de títulos universitarios oficiales de Grado o de Máster Universitario, o que conduzcan a la obtención de títulos propios, así como la oferta de programas de Doctorado"

Google version:
"g) The preparation and approval of study plans leading to the obtaining of official university degrees of Bachelor's or Master's Degree, or that lead to the obtaining of their own degrees, as well as the offer of Doctorate programs"

same article h)
"h) La expedición de los títulos correspondientes a las enseñanzas universitarias de carácter oficial, así como de títulos propios, incluida la formación a lo largo de la vida."
Google again:
"h) The issuance of the titles corresponding to official university education, as well as own titles, including lifelong training."

But maybe the most interesting is article 6 point 6:
"6. La docencia y la formación universitarias se estructuran, por una parte, en la docencia oficial con validez y eficacia en todo el Estado, configurada por los títulos de Grado, Máster Universitario y Doctorado, y, por otra parte, en la articulada en los títulos propios. En ambos casos, dichas titulaciones podrán organizarse como titulaciones conjuntas entre universidades españolas o entre universidades españolas y extranjeras"

Google version: "6. University teaching and training are structured, on the one hand, in official teaching with validity and effectiveness throughout the State, configured by the titles of Bachelor's, University Master's and Doctorate, and, on the other hand, in the articulated in own titles. In both cases, these degrees may be organized as joint degrees between Spanish universities or between Spanish and foreign universities."

Get your own opinion...or look for more info. I just give my subjective opinion between the limited frame of my understanding. Please educate me and improve my knowledge if you think is necessary or I am wrong, which is always a possibility.

[Kab]

So I keep searching and I found this document that you can find here:
https://www.ucam.edu/sites/default/files....pdf??ucam
Is from UCAM.
It explains how work the "titulos propios". I think is important to read it in Spanish because in the translation it will use the same words that in spanish in some points. Basically they say that the oficial degrees are Grado, master oficial and Doctorado, in spanish and later they pass to the titulos propios and stablish the Master en formacion permanente, doctorate (which means nothing in spanish as far as I know, but I went to https://dle.rae.es/ and wrote doctorate and give that exist not and jumps to the word doctorar) and also bachelor as study which is another english word and the spanish dictionary comes with the result "La palabra bachelor no está en el Diccionario.".
When you write in English is obvious that doctorate has meaning.
In the title III they say is based in Real Decreto 822/2021.
the full text is here "Conforme a lo establecido en el Real Decreto 822/2021, de 28 de septiembre, por el que se establece la organización de las enseñanzas universitarias y del procedimiento de aseguramiento de su calidad, los órganos de gobierno de las universidades deberán aprobar anualmente la programación y oferta de estudios propios, sin que se induzca a confusión en cuanto al nivel y carácter no oficial de estos títulos."

Google translation:
"In accordance with the provisions of Royal Decree 822/2021, of September 28, which establishes the organization of university education and the quality assurance procedure, the governing bodies of the universities must annually approve the programming and offer of own studies, without leading to confusion as to the level and unofficial nature of these titles."
The part I find most interesting is this: "without leading to confusion as to the level and unofficial nature of these titles." in conjunction with you asseveration that the text they send you say this: "While both a PhD and a doctorate are doctoral-level degrees" + "They are both highly respected and recognized as top-level degrees in their respective fields, and both confer the title of “Doctor” upon completion."

They are saying that both confer the exact same title...or I understand it wrong? This affirmation I find the most interesting. Because their own document regulating the study does not say that their "doctorate" (which means nothing in Spanish as far as I know) give you the rights to bear the name doctor.

Furthermore in the admission criteria of this doctorate, in art. 9.2 "requisitos de acceso" or access requirements part3 says "Excepcionalmente, el Director del curso podrá establecer la admisión de profesionales con conocimientos reconocidos en la especialidad de que se trate el curso, y que cuenten con al menos cinco años de reconocida experiencia profesional en función de los objetivos y finalidad del Máster."
I remark "y que cuenten con al menos cinco años de reconocida experiencia profesional en función de los objetivos y finalidad del Máster" where appear to say the entrance to a master... maybe a typo? maybe not? I do not know but seems odd to me for a third level study to call it master.
So at this point I think I cannot help you more. I did what I could in face of your petition of info (I understand help) and with my limited knowledge of language is what I could understand. I hope it helps.

[doyouhowdo1]

So I keep searching and I found this document that you can find here:
https://www.ucam.edu/sites/default/files....pdf??ucam
Is from UCAM.
It explains how work the "titulos propios". I think is important to read it in Spanish because in the translation it will use the same words that in spanish in some points. Basically they say that the oficial degrees are Grado, master oficial and Doctorado, in spanish and later they pass to the titulos propios and stablish the Master en formacion permanente, doctorate (which means nothing in spanish as far as I know, but I went to https://dle.rae.es/ and wrote doctorate and give that exist not and jumps to the word doctorar) and also bachelor as study which is another english word and the spanish dictionary comes with the result "La palabra bachelor no está en el Diccionario.".
When you write in English is obvious that doctorate has meaning.
In the title III they say is based in Real Decreto 822/2021.
the full text is here "Conforme a lo establecido en el Real Decreto 822/2021, de 28 de septiembre, por el que se establece la organización de las enseñanzas universitarias y del procedimiento de aseguramiento de su calidad, los órganos de gobierno de las universidades deberán aprobar anualmente la programación y oferta de estudios propios, sin que se induzca a confusión en cuanto al nivel y carácter no oficial de estos títulos."

Google translation:
"In accordance with the provisions of Royal Decree 822/2021, of September 28, which establishes the organization of university education and the quality assurance procedure, the governing bodies of the universities must annually approve the programming and offer of own studies, without leading to confusion as to the level and unofficial nature of these titles."
The part I find most interesting is this: "without leading to confusion as to the level and unofficial nature of these titles." in conjunction with you asseveration that the text they send you say this: "While both a PhD and a doctorate are doctoral-level degrees" + "They are both highly respected and recognized as top-level degrees in their respective fields, and both confer the title of “Doctor” upon completion."

They are saying that both confer the exact same title...or I understand it wrong?  This affirmation I find the most interesting. Because their own document regulating the study does not say that their "doctorate" (which means nothing in Spanish as far as I know) give you the rights to bear the name doctor.

Furthermore in the admission criteria of this doctorate, in art. 9.2 "requisitos de acceso" or access requirements  part3 says "Excepcionalmente, el Director del curso podrá establecer la admisión de profesionales con conocimientos reconocidos en la especialidad de que se trate el curso, y que cuenten con al menos cinco años de reconocida experiencia profesional en función de los objetivos y finalidad del Máster."
I remark "y que cuenten con al menos cinco años de reconocida experiencia profesional en función de los objetivos y finalidad del Máster" where appear to say the entrance to a master... maybe a typo? maybe not? I do not know but seems odd to me for a third level study to call it master.
So at this point I think I cannot help you more. I did what I could in face of your petition of info (I understand help) and with my limited knowledge of language is what I could understand. I hope it helps.

Wow. Thank you so much for doing the research for me. 

I even look at other provider who provide this DBA degree. I download their brochure and have a look.  https://athenawebsiteprod.uniathena.com/...ochure.pdf
Here is the quote from the brochure at page 15:
"
Practice-based Thesis
This is the capstone module of the DBA in which you plan and implement your own extended research project which you then write up as a 40,000-50,000 word thesis which you are then called upon to ‘defend’ during an oral examination. This is where you demonstrate your own deep expertise in a specic area of applied business and management, earn your doctoral
title, and quite possibly make a signicant dierence to your own organisation! Although this is an individual project, you
will be fully supported by a qualied and experienced academic supervisor.
" 
Which says basally mean once I finish their so call "Thesis" and pass then I will earn the doctor title. 

Then on their website https://uniathena.com/courses/doctorate-...nistration
"The Doctorate of Business Administration (DBA) is a blended part-time professional doctoral degree of international scope and reputation, designed to enhance executive and professional practice through the application of sound theory and rigorous research into real and complex issues in business and management. It enhances the capability of the learners to develop their knowledge and understanding of business and apply that in practice. The DBA is a university private degree-Titulo propio"

"The DBA is an executive-level program designed for working professionals possessing extensive managerial experience as well as a master’s degree, who are looking to advance further in their career. DBA has both rigor and relevance as it contributes to theory, practice and research in business and management. The DBA program is a full-fledged Doctoral degree, but unlike the Ph.D., it is geared towards honing capabilities in the professional sphere. PhD programs are usually meant for those interested in pursuing research based careers in academia."

Combine everything their website and brochure, they either trying to mislead or confirm that this DBA are in fact a doctorate degree and once finish the degree, you can call yourself a doctor. 

Now I'm still waiting for UCAM to reply me another email.

[openair]

They say this on the website: "Get Doctorate of Business Administration (DBA) from Universidad Católica De Murcia (UCAM), Spain (Titulo propio)"

You don't need to inquire about recognition. A titulo propio of any kind is NOT a recognized doctoral degree in Europe. I like Spanish propio degrees, but only at the Master's degree (professional development) level. Even at that Master's level, the European countries (outside of Spain) do not see it as being equal to a ministry/government-recognized Master's degree. You can check with the various European authorities that deal with degree recognition to confirm that. There was someone claiming that they received this Master propio recognition in Belgium, but I have not seen any confirmation of those claims.

[rachel83az]

The person in Belgium got recognition from their company, not from the government. I can definitely see companies doing that.

Example: UoPeople degrees are NOT valid in Germany (for visa purposes or for further studies). But if you check the scholarship page, there are (or have been) multiple German companies offering scholarships to refugees living and working in Germany.

That said, I strongly recommend students to pursue the degree(s) that are known to work with the desired country or countries. Not just hope to find a willing employer.

[cacoleman1983]

What's so interesting about all of these propio (own) degrees is even with the lack of government recognition in Spain, it is up to the other countries in how they choose to recognize these degrees. In fact, it relies on those in those countries such as employers and schools to make their own interpretation with or without a foreign credential evaluation. I can understand why some foreign credential evaluators including the newest ones that are NACES members refuse to evaluate as there is no consensus on how to interpret propio degrees. We've had four different NACES members give four different results for ENEB degrees.

UCAM knows that in Spain, these degrees are limited. However, they also know that internationals are a bit more flexible with recognition of propios than Spain. Therefore, saying that you can use the "Dr." title for the DBA is accurate for those outside of Spain in many places. It's really no different than non-accredited yet "state-authorized" schools here in the United States being pursued by internationals with those degrees not being fully recognized but legally awarded and still being accepted.

[doyouhowdo1]

After some more research, I saw someone posted their degree and transcript on their education section. On the degree, it now say "For having successfully completed on January 2022 the UCAM Degree, Doctorate in Business Administration (DBA)"

Here is the link:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tyv-icss-spe...le-energy/