DBA Degree from UCAM by Westford

[doyouhowdo1]

I have recently enrolled in the Doctorate of Business Administration (DBA) program at UCAM Universidad Católica San Antonio de Murcia by Westford. After engaging in discussions on online forums, I learned that this program falls under the category of "título propio." Further research indicated that such degrees may not provide significant advantages for pursuing a Ph.D. or securing government positions in Spain. However, considering that the DBA is already a doctoral degree and I have no intentions of pursuing a government job in Spain, I am curious about its suitability for my career goals. I would like to know if there are any potential drawbacks or limitations associated with this type of degree.

This is the link:
https://www.mywestford.com/doctorate-of-...nistration

[Kab]

If you mean that DBA is an academic degree at doctoral level that is no the case. If you mean that is a continuing education degree at a recognized university but outside of normal academic education and that does grant you no right to any official degree name is correct. Let me explain the why of this sentence:
Brief explanation:
DBA in Spain is void of value at Academic University level. It is recognized as continuing education or professional education under Spanish law as a university level as far I know or can find. Actually the valid degree levels are Graduado/Graduado universitario (240 ECTS to 360ECTS), Master Oficial(60 to 120 ETCS), Doctorado(120+ECTS). Spain had in the past Diplomado Universitario, ingeniero técnico, arquitecto técnico (at 180 ECTS) and even at the beginning of the Bologna process in some States a Graduado that could be done in 3 years ( now is 4). Now this plan should not accept anybody else and only be for people remaining to finish. Also in the past had Licenciado from 240 to 360 ECTS mostly of the studies being at 300 ETCS). Also this has been discontinued.
In Spain only Academic studies are considered granted a protected university level or denomination (as per the Bologna agreement in Europe). Thus only PhD (which MUST include a dissertation) are academic studies at doctorate level.
It is true that the program you mentioned is nice, well structured follow a two step process, like a doctorate level studies. But when you study is not recognized by the government of the country the university resides I will not call it a doctorate study. The study is what the web of the university say it is: "The Doctorate of Business Administration (DBA) is a blended part-time professional doctoral degree..." A professional oriented education that falls outside the regulated academic education structure of the country the university is in. But it falls in the professional education structure.
For what I can see is a professional degree that teaches how to be better at business. Unlike most "Doctor of" professional Regional Accredited degrees of the US (that usually are officially evaluated as Master degrees or even bachelors in Europe on*) this directly give you no right be the called a "Doctor" in Spain or pretend to. That is a protected name and use of it without the proper rights is a direct violation of the law, as stated under Spanish law.
*In some cases can be accepted as PhD if they followed a PhD structure, requirements and had a dissertation. All PhD are PhD.
Spanish law that regulates what is a doctoral study: https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2011-2541
The interesting part is the Disposición final primera. Modificación del Real Decreto 1393/2007, de 29 de octubre, por el que se establece la ordenación de las enseñanzas universitarias. in concrete the modification of article 11 part 2 "La superación de las enseñanzas de doctorado dará derecho a la obtención del título de Doctor o Doctora, con la denominación que figure en el RUCT".
Basically check the RUCT or database of education titles and see which names have each university to their studies. The UCAM or Universidad Catolica de Murcia is described in the RUCT as Universidad Catolica San Antonio. When you check if the degrees that appear are in red... they are extinct and are not being offered anymore.
Web page to check: https://www.educacion.gob.es/ruct/consul...l=estudios
Actualy they have 4 PhD:
Programa de Doctorado en Ciencias de la Salud por la Universidad Católica San Antonio
Programa de Doctorado en Ciencias del Deporte por la Universidad Católica San Antonio
Programa de Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales por la Universidad Católica San Antonio
Programa de Doctorado en Tecnologías de la Computación e Ingeniería Ambiental por la Universidad Católica San Antonio

No DBA there. That is why I think that the sentence you used: "...considering that the DBA is already a doctoral degree..." is a no, that is not correct at academic level based on the laws and regulations of the country of the University that will give you the piece of paper and upon which other countries have to evaluate it. Only degree with official or accredited recognition as academic level are the ones I mention before.
The degree will be official as a professional degree or continuous education degree. Because Spain has a law for that too, an the existence of that law will make it "official" but not the equivalent of a RA degree.
Answering to "suitability for my career goals": Depending what you want to do with it. It show that you know a lot of business. That you spent time studying and improving your knowledge, but in a career or professional oriented base and way, not in a theoretical one(like it will be with an academic degree). Can you sell that?

Given the changes in the last 20 years my guess is that all that will change in the future. Europe will be more free in the degree structure and will finish like the US... but when or even if this will happen is a question only the future knows. At least now the degrees are more oriented to be used in the society for a profession...in the past was more theoretical all.
I do not want to sound unfriendly with all the things before, but just let clear the situation, because is a lot of confusion around the Spanish system. I repeat the "titulos propios" are oriented to work and practical application. If you can make they accepted as a DBA in USA where this type of education exist at University level and is recognize as such great. The structure of the program sounds really good. Does the structure of the program follow what I see in other countries, yes. The quality looks good and better than some for profit out there. The problem is not of the content of the degree but of the bureaucratic structure and legal structure between different countries.

[bjcheung77]

@doyouhowdo1, Welcome to the board, that's an interesting initial post... Don't leave us hanging with, did you do more research on them yet? What else have you found out about them? In regards to: "I am curious about its suitability for my career goals." How are we to know your career goal without you telling us?

Lastly, "I would like to know if there are any potential drawbacks or limitations associated with this type of degree." For me, ENEB was an inexpensive option to fill learning/knowledge gaps I may have had in Business related subjects. There usually isn't a downside to learning, you don't have to evaluate or 'use' it differently.

[doyouhowdo1]

@doyouhowdo1, Welcome to the board, that's an interesting initial post... Don't leave us hanging with, did you do more research on them yet? What else have you found out about them? In regards to: "I am curious about its suitability for my career goals." How are we to know your career goal without you telling us?  

Lastly, "I would like to know if there are any potential drawbacks or limitations associated with this type of degree."  For me, ENEB was an inexpensive option to fill learning/knowledge gaps I may have had in Business related subjects.  There usually isn't a downside to learning, you don't have to evaluate or 'use' it differently.

After conducting thorough some research during this few days. Find out that their program structure requires completing the Master of Philosophy as the initial stage of the DBA, which is also known as the Titulo Propi. Upon successful completion of the master's degree, I would seamlessly transition into the DBA program.

Considering my career preferences, I have no intention of working in a government-related role and plan to remain in the logistics industry for the next decade in China or New Zealand/Australia. Currently, I hold a lower-level managerial position, and I believe that a DBA could significantly enhance my prospects of advancing to a middle or high-level management position. Given the demanding nature of the logistics industry, finding time for research can be challenging. Therefore, I am seeking an online DBA program that offers a more manageable approach to pursuing a doctorate degree.

Here are the links with their DBA degree certificate:
https://ibb.co/ngCkkLC
https://ibb.co/QrPYv44
https://ibb.co/4g80XCG
https://ibb.co/Bf6D5k8

[doyouhowdo1]

If you mean that DBA is an academic degree at doctoral level that is no the case. If you mean that is a continuing education degree at a recognized university but outside of normal academic education and that does grant you no right to any official degree name is correct. Let me explain the why of this sentence:
Brief explanation:
DBA in Spain is void of value at Academic University level. It is recognized as continuing education or professional education under Spanish law as a university level as far I know or can find. Actually the valid degree levels are Graduado/Graduado universitario (240 ECTS to 360ECTS), Master Oficial(60 to 120 ETCS), Doctorado(120+ECTS). Spain had in the past Diplomado Universitario, ingeniero técnico, arquitecto técnico (at 180 ECTS) and even at the beginning of the Bologna process in some States a Graduado that could be done in 3 years ( now is 4). Now this plan should not accept anybody else and only be for people remaining to finish. Also in the past had Licenciado from 240 to 360 ECTS mostly of the studies being at 300 ETCS). Also this has been discontinued.
In Spain only Academic studies are considered granted a protected university level or denomination (as per the Bologna agreement in Europe). Thus only PhD (which MUST include a dissertation) are academic studies at doctorate level.
It is true that the program you mentioned is nice, well structured follow a two step process, like a doctorate level studies. But when you study is not recognized by the government of the country the university resides I will not call it a doctorate study. The study is what the web of the university say it is: "The Doctorate of Business Administration (DBA) is a blended part-time professional doctoral degree..." A professional oriented education that falls outside the regulated academic education structure of the country the university is in. But it falls in the professional education structure.  
For what I can see is a professional degree that teaches how to be better at business. Unlike most "Doctor of" professional Regional Accredited degrees of the US (that usually are officially evaluated as Master degrees or even bachelors in Europe on*) this directly give you no right be the called a "Doctor" in Spain or pretend to. That is a protected name and use of it without the proper rights is a direct violation of the law, as stated under Spanish law.
*In some cases can be accepted as PhD if they followed a PhD structure, requirements and had a dissertation. All PhD are PhD.
Spanish law that regulates what is a doctoral study: https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2011-2541
The interesting part is the Disposición final primera. Modificación del Real Decreto 1393/2007, de 29 de octubre, por el que se establece la ordenación de las enseñanzas universitarias. in concrete the modification of article 11 part 2 "La superación de las enseñanzas de doctorado dará derecho a la obtención del título de Doctor o Doctora, con la denominación que figure en el RUCT".
Basically check the RUCT or database of education titles and see which names have each university to their studies. The UCAM or Universidad Catolica de Murcia is described in the RUCT as Universidad Catolica San Antonio. When you check if the degrees that appear are in red... they are extinct and are not being offered anymore.
Web page to check: https://www.educacion.gob.es/ruct/consul...l=estudios
Actualy they have 4 PhD:
Programa de Doctorado en Ciencias de la Salud por la Universidad Católica San Antonio  
Programa de Doctorado en Ciencias del Deporte por la Universidad Católica San Antonio  
Programa de Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales por la Universidad Católica San Antonio  
Programa de Doctorado en Tecnologías de la Computación e Ingeniería Ambiental por la Universidad Católica San Antonio

No DBA there. That is why I think that the sentence you used: "...considering that the DBA is already a doctoral degree..." is a no, that is not correct at academic level based on the laws and regulations of the country of the University that will give you the piece of paper and upon which other countries have to evaluate it. Only degree with official or accredited recognition as academic level are the ones I mention before.
The degree will be official as a professional degree or continuous education degree.  Because Spain has a law for that too, an the existence of that law will make it "official" but not the equivalent of a RA degree.
Answering to "suitability for my career goals": Depending what you want to do with it. It show that you know a lot of business. That you spent time studying and improving your knowledge, but in a career or professional oriented base and way, not in a theoretical one(like it will be with an academic degree). Can you sell that?

Given the changes in the last 20 years my guess is that all that will change in the future. Europe will be more free in the degree structure and will finish  like the US... but when or even if this will happen is a question only the future knows. At least now the degrees are more oriented to be used in the society for a profession...in the past was more theoretical all.  
I do not want to sound unfriendly with all the things before, but just let clear the situation, because is a lot of confusion around the Spanish system. I repeat the "titulos propios" are oriented to work and practical application. If you can make they accepted as a DBA in USA where this type of education exist at University level and is recognize as such great. The structure of the program sounds really good. Does the structure of the program follow what I see in other countries, yes. The quality looks good and better than some for profit out there. The problem is not of the content of the degree but of the bureaucratic structure and legal structure between different countries.

I agree everything you have said. But is acutally illegal to call myself a Doctor even after I done the DBA with UCAM? The reason why I'm asking even tho you said so is because I just got a replied from the Westford that after you finish the DBA with them, you can call yourself a doctor. I'm now going to send emails to the university and see what they say. I will get you posted.

[turbotortuga]

I agree everything you have said. But is acutally illegal to call myself a Doctor even after I done the DBA with UCAM? The reason why I'm asking even tho you said so is because I just got a replied from the Westford that after you finish the DBA with them, you can call yourself a doctor. I'm now going to send emails to the university and see what they say. I will get you posted.

I think that Kab did an excellent job of breaking down Spanish Law as it pertains to the awarding and recognition of Spanish Professional versus Academic Degrees. And according to the Spanish Law as it pertains to this degree in Spain, you would not be conferred the title of Doctor were you to be awarded this professional degree. So I would say that UCAM and Westford are being a little unethical by saying that you could, even though Kab has proven that their Spanish DBA is not an academic degree that affords that title. Unlike in the US, where a DBA from an accredited university IS considered a "Doctoral" degree and therefore would grant the title of Doctor upon conferral.

[bjcheung77]

@doyouhowdo1, Which country are you from? It really depends on how your country looks at the partnership, it's either in a favorable or non-favorable in Australia/New Zealand, the same goes for other countries such as Canada and the UK.  You want to use the evaluations from that respective country and if those evaluations come in as equivalent, favorable, and recognized, then you CAN think of it as considered a Doctoral degree.  

Having said that, if it comes back as not equivalent, non-favorable, not recognized, then you CAN'T consider it equal to a Doctoral degree... As again, It really depends on various factors or variables... You want to review this post I mentioned about ENEB and the corresponding link within that post: https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Thread-...#pid397864

[doyouhowdo1]

I agree everything you have said. But is acutally illegal to call myself a Doctor even after I done the DBA with UCAM? The reason why I'm asking even tho you said so is because I just got a replied from the Westford that after you finish the DBA with them, you can call yourself a doctor. I'm now going to send emails to the university and see what they say. I will get you posted.

I think that Kab did an excellent job of breaking down Spanish Law as it pertains to the awarding and recognition of Spanish Professional versus Academic Degrees. And according to the Spanish Law as it pertains to this degree in Spain, you would not be conferred the title of Doctor were you to be awarded this professional degree. So I would say that UCAM and Westford are being a little unethical by saying that you could, even though Kab has proven that their Spanish DBA is not an academic degree that affords that title. Unlike in the US, where a DBA from an accredited university IS considered a "Doctoral" degree and therefore would grant the title of Doctor upon conferral.

Currently it is only Westford confirmed me that I can call myself a doctor. Still waiting for UCAM to reply me. I will keep you posted.

---

@doyouhowdo1, Which country are you from? It really depends on how your country looks at the partnership, it's either in a favorable or non-favorable in Australia/New Zealand, the same goes for other countries such as Canada and the UK.  You want to use the evaluations from that respective country and if those evaluations come in as equivalent, favorable, and recognized, then you CAN think of it as considered a Doctoral degree.  

Having said that, if it comes back as not equivalent, non-favorable, not recognized, then you CAN'T consider it equal to a Doctoral degree... As again, It really depends on various factors or variables... You want to review this post I mentioned about ENEB and the corresponding link within that post: https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Thread-...#pid397864

I come from Hong Kong, but have multiple citizenship. So I can move around if I wants. Which is why I'm not worrying about immigration, getting a government jobs etc. All I need is a Doctorate degree to get a better job if I choose to move to NZ/AUZ or UK.

[Kab]

I agree everything you have said. But is acutally illegal to call myself a Doctor even after I done the DBA with UCAM? The reason why I'm asking even tho you said so is because I just got a replied from the Westford that after you finish the DBA with them, you can call yourself a doctor. I'm now going to send emails to the university and see what they say. I will get you posted.

Each country has their rules of what you can call yourself and not. I cannot say what you can be called or not because I do not know where you want to go or where you are.
I just tell you that there is a law of who can call themselves doctor in Spain. In Spain is the people that finish a regulated studies of PhD. This from the legal perspective. Practically in the country outside of academic circles nobody (or nearly nobody) call themselves doctor even if you have the degree. Can happen .... but not usual. People define themselves by their relationship to others and sometimes for the working position. Even people that studied medicine sometimes call themselves doctors, doctor as a profession not academic degree, even without a PhD an most of the time there is no problem. I've seen sometimes some comments and jokes... or asking the title of the thesis. Nothing else other some humbling comment very sparingly from somebody that has a PhD and wants to mark territory. Another thing is if you start to write DR. in front of your name. Then you are in murky territory.
Usually the law require that in the territory where the degree was given it has official standing to reciprocate. Again each country is different. An I would say that is different to say I made a DBA in XXXX uni or I have a DBA than I am Doctor YYYYY. They sound similar, but are different. I you can get a way to have the degree recognized as valid where you spend your time, then is great.
Why you don't ask them if you can make a formal PhD?
In the documents you passed, in concrete in https://ibb.co/4g80XCG , it clearly say "secretaria de títulos propios" under the name of the university.
My guess is that the "titulo propio" will be more flexible to do and with the timelines, support and structure and the Academic will be very rigid and probably the first year of classes will be in Spanish.

I say it again. The study itself appears to be the same as the academic one in structure and everything, the university is perfectly good. Subjectively, the only problem from an USA perspective can be in agency that has to evaluated it back home. If the evaluating agencies evaluate the studies as per content should perfectly fine since the quality appears to be there. Does not appear to pay to get a degree. To me appears as if you pass, you earned. If they evaluate the bureaucratic structure you can run into problems. Still if you do not have any PhD I would go for an academic one if you already have an academic master degree.
As far as I know to study (an only study) you do not need to have your studies officially evaluated by the Spanish government. The university can do their own evaluation (at least as far as I know). Be aware that academic PhD can be a lot of work... and drain hours like mad.

[bjcheung77]

I come from Hong Kong, but have multiple citizenship. So I can move around if I wants. Which is why I'm not worrying about immigration, getting a government jobs etc. All I need is a Doctorate degree to get a better job if I choose to move to NZ/AUZ or UK.

Hmm, reminds me, I previously loved listening to music from Grasshopper, Four Heavenly Kings, Twins, etc (Music era in the 1990s). Haven't listened to Asian music in a long time... I also visited HK at least 15 times since 2003/2004 right after SARS, as it's my gateway to Asia when I travel.  

Anyways, you aren't going for academic, government, positions that may require additional education, etc, so... I don't get what the issue is?  Your main goal is similar to mine, getting the learning/knowledge gaps.  A title isn't worth the paper it's on, I would just finish this DBA, have it evaluated by NARIC (AUZ, NZ, or UK, doesn't matter which one).

In brief, for the academic evaluation... If it's favorable, great, if not, let it be...