BA Computer Science TESC

[skyfall123]

I wanted to post some feedback about the TESC BA Computer Science program since Sandra requested it, and hopefully it may prove valuable to others. First off the curriculum is much different than a BSBA Computer Information Systems degree. It is more theory based and requires Calc I & Calc II.

But first let me tell you why we choose this route for son #2 (Dan). The federal government has a grant program called Scholarship for Service which will essentially pay for a Masters Degree in Information Security in exchange for two years of federal employment. In addition the student receives a $12K a year stipend to live on while attending school. This is important because it shows one way the CS degree can pay off. Dan has applied for the FSU CS program and has been told he has a very good chance of receiving it. We will know in about 4 weeks. https://www.sfs.opm.gov/ Sandra I believe UNC also offers this program. Now this scholarship is for US citizens only who are able to obtain a security clearance. This is important since most CS Masters programs are filled with international students. They don't qualify for the scholarship.

Now the bueaty of the TESC CS program is that it is pretty flexible. You must take Calc I & Calc II, Discrete Math, Data Structures and a Intoduction to Computing course ( which can be met with the CLEP), but the rest is up to you. I strongly suggest also taking Operating Systems and Computer Architecture since these are pre-reqs for any and all Masters CS programs.

I see that Straighterline now has Calc I & Calc II. Dan filled those through the USDA Graduate School. $295 per course, but self paced and doable if you take your time.

Data Structures requires a background in C++ so you need that foundation going in. Discrete Math was the hardest for Dan, not because it was impossibly difficult, but like any other math course you need to practice and take your time working through the problems to get better. Its not like studying for a CLEP where you can collect massive amounts of info in a short period of time. These course require a slow and steady pace.

Operating Systems and Computer Architecture were the easiest for Dan and I imagine any other students. Dan was accepted into the UIS CS Masters program with his TESC BA CS, but has his heart set on FSU with the SFS. I'll keep you posted on how things go.

[ryoder]

Thanks for an excellent post.

[SandraNC]

Geezer,

I appreciate your taking the time to write this synopsis of the CS degree. It's very helpful.

Thanks,
Sandra

[skyfall123]

Here are some really good questions I received in a private message:

I'm curious about graduate school applications. How many classes did your son take at TESC? I'm wondering if using CLEP and DSST is frowned upon. Did he take the GRE general exam? GRE subject exam? Who did he get to write letters of recommendation?

My son ended up with 27 credits from TESC (15 CS credits). We were originally on the path for a BSBA CIS, but after discovering the scholarships available for Computer Science and knowing that being able to understand and speak the Computer Science language(s) would help his career, I asked Dan if he would devote one semester 12 hours to the CS track....no pressure.... if it didn't work out we would just resume the BSBA CIS. What happened was that the CS courses were much more challenging and the end result was that he really learned a lot and finally began to understand how all of the CS courses (and Calculus) were tied together. The light bulb went off. He was learning a new way to look at things, a new way to solve problems. It made him a better student and employee. He became passionate about learning again.....

I don't think potential colleges care about CLEP's or DSST's for Gen Ed, but they will want to make sure your son does well in the graded CS core courses. My son had already taken Intro to Programming, C, C+, Networking and Unix courses prior to TESC.

I think if your son chooses this path you should have him complete his first 90 GenEd credits then maybe consider enrolling him in the one year TESC Comprehensive Plan and have him take C, C++, Data Structures, Discrete Math, Operating Systems, Computer Architecture and if he can fit them in Assembly Language, Networking and Software Engineering courses.

My son did get admitted into the UIS Masters CS program with his TESC BA CS, but they did want him to take one additional advanced programming course.

He took the general GRE a couple weeks after he graduated from TESC. He scored well enough without any additional studying (over 1120) to cover the minimum requirements to get into grad school.

My son had a cumulative GPA of around 3.0, but his CS core GPA was 3.55.
His edge is that he has been a civilian DoD employee for the last three years and has three stellar letters of recommendations, all from DoD supervisors, a retired Lieutenant Colonel, a retired Sergeant Major and a Chief Financial Officer. He is also going through the process of getting a security clearance, which is a big deal.

A high cumulative GPA 3.2+ and a high CS core GPA 3.5+ coupled with a high GRE (1250 or above) would be what your son should shoot for. If he could get letters of recommendations from his instructors/mentors that would probably mean as much or more than work related ones. My suggestion is to also do volunteer/intern work for local police depts, state agencies, non-profits etc...those can turn into valuable letters of recommendations.

Here is the other thing.....our plan B....you can also apply directly to the government agencies. The NSA offers 3 year internships for recent CS graduates
Mid-level professional careers at the National Security Agency (NSA)
in fact the majority of InfoSec graduates coming out of the SFS program go to work for the NSA. Many of the other government agencies also offer internships for recent graduates.

The reason that InfoSec is such a great career move is that it is one of the most in demand government jobs, and will be for decades. It means high pay and the ability to advance very quickly. He could go in wih just a BA CS at $50K-$60K and work his way up to $90K-$100 or more in just a few years. Plus the country really needs InfoSec professionals. Its a great way to give back.

One last thing, regrets.....the thing I regret is not having son #2 take the same Cisco/CCNA track in Community College Catalog 2010-11: Programs: Computer Science and Information Technology: C.C., Computer Engineering Technology CISCO/CCNA - Seminole State College of Florida that his brother did. His brother has parlayed his Cisco/CCNA training into high paying jobs in the telecom industry and is now living in Germany, working for a European Aerospace company tracking 50 million dollar satellites. Check with the local Community College to see if they offer a Cisco/CCNA 4 or 5 course hands-on training certificate/track. If your son needs an intro to Networking, this might be a good way to get him started.

[SandraNC]

Thanks again for sharing your son's undergraduate plan. I'm curious...what advanced course did the graduate school want your son to take? Was it Linear Algebra?

How many TESC CS courses would you recommend per 12-week term for a full time student?

Sandra

[skyfall123]

Ryoder and Yenesei please hop on this discussion to give some real world advice.

Sandra here is my understanding of the common Computer Science curriculum. The curriculums have a dual challenge - to teach theory which is critical and to teach the practical application of theory. The math, whether Discrete Math or Linear Algebra along with Calc I & II is required to teach the student to think differently and be able to solve complex problems in a logical manner. Many of the courses involve teaching about the hardware (Computer Architecture) and software (Operating Systems) that are related to programming. The better the programming code is written the less vulnerable to attack the system is and the better the program performs.


Programming is a critical element as this is the foundation for all learning within CS. It is also critically important for InfoSec majors who are trying to secure networks and infrastructure. Many attacks are launched by taking advantage of programming vulnerabilities. So the student should understand Assembly Language (a basic programming language) and C, C+, C++ which are universal languages that many hackers exploit. Even if your son doesn't intend on becoming a Software Programmer he needs to understand programming and how hackers exploit bad code to gain access to infrastructure.

Maybe an analogy could be a vehicle (a computer program) going to a destination (solving a real world program). You could have a Ferrari (good programming) that flies down the Autobahn at 150MPH and gets you form point A to point B quickly and efficiently. Then you could have a Yugo (inefficient programming) that putters down the road at 40MPH, spewing out polution and slowing down the rest of traffic. Both can get you from point A to B, one is efficient and secure the other is a mess. CS majors in high quality programs learn the proper way to code.

This is an oversimplification from a parents perspective which i hope that Ryoder and Yenesei can elaborate on.

The course that UIS wants Dan to take covers Assembly which he didn't take as an undergrad. He was able to take 12 credits while working full time. It was not easy, but that is why most students opt for an easier route. The payoff is that the field narrows and these skills become high demand.

[SandraNC]

Geezer,

Thank you for the info. I'm printing this all out for future reference. It's a great help.

Did any of the graduate schools question the Calculus credits transcribed by ACE?

There has been some discussion on these boards of graduate schools not counting ACE credits and I'm wondering what your experience has been...

Thanks,
Sandra

[skyfall123]

Sandra the ACE Calc wasn't a problem. Curiously enough, John Hopkins recommends the USDA Graduate School Calc courses for potential MBA students needing a Calc background. A note about Calculus...there are a couple of different tracks that are offered in college. The first is for Engineering/Science pre-med majors covering Calc w/Analytic Geometry I - IV, the second is for non-engineering majors and usually covers just General Calc I & Calc II.

The second track normally emphasizes the practical application of Calc in the fields of Business, Social Sciences, etc.....The USDA Graduate school and Straighterline Calc courses are the second type. They provide the basics and cover the practical application of Calculus. The newer textbooks are typically written in a more student friendly way, giving lots of current real world examples of how Calc can be used to solve complex problems.

In general.....a BS Computer Science curriculum would typically require the first type and 8 additional hours of advanced Physics w/Calculus courses. This becomes a real planning issue since they have to be taken in sequence. In other words a student should begin the Calc and Physics sequences their first semester in college. A BA Computer Science would typically require/accept just General Calc I & Calc II which is why this degree is popular, especially among late bloomers. I hope this makes sense.

[ryoder]

As always geezer you are spot on. I was in the usf college of engineering and my computer science core required calc one through four since it was basically the engineering core program minus statics and thermodynamics.
They also requires physics I and II with calculus and lab. Then you would take linear algebra and discrete structures, both of them. Once you were through all of that you too needed intro to comp sci, programming concepts which were programming courses. Then you took data structures, algorithms and operating systems. Operating systems was not a survey of unix. You had to write a mini os on motorola 68000 hardware! Then there were a bunch of electives of course and a database course in there.

The thing about information systems security is that most people working in this field are not programmers. They are often from the desktop support or network engineering departments. I work with these people daily and my friend is manager of info security for a large company so even though i think these people would be better off if they were accomplished programmers they really are not.

Info security is a specialist job and its not one that you hire entry level candidates for typically. You need to start out at the bottom unfortunately and work your way up to it. I'll ask my friend if he has ever hired someone with no experience but in my company these people are all in their mid thirties minimum.

In info security you are going to be writing, explaining and enforcing the company security policy. You will be working with outside vendors to schedule penetration tests, then when the sorry results come in, you will find someone like me, a dev lead to mitigate those risks through patches to sw, os, code changes etc. This is the role of an info security manager, analyst or internal auditor.

You could also work for an outside agency and run penetration tests for companies for a fee. This is ethical hacking. Most of these hackers use common tools to do the hacking and even get othe phone and try to social engineer their way into a system by tricking the support personnel or a random employee into giving up access.

I am a software developer with a background in inf security. There are fewer of us than the management, networking and desktop support types. I used to work for a company that wrote web access management software to protect company web sites. Info security and operations managers purchased our product to provide a single sign on solution.

I hope this helps. My main point is that yes programming is important but most info sec people are not programmers.

[skyfall123]

Ryoder - excellent info, thank you very much for contributing your real world experience....it's invaluable. I really appreciate the insight, it really helps me understand the role of programming. Sandra I became much more involved in my kids education after taking a couple of IT courses at the CC they attended. Not only did it inspire me to find this board and finish my degree, but I made it a priority to help my kids obtain their degrees. No matter which path your son chooses, I think that it pays to understand as a much about their major as possible (as you are doing).

Sandra we talked earlier about volunteering/internships etc....while he is in college. Here is a link to government internships/summer jobs for college students. Don't input any preferences, just hit the search jobs button and you will see what's available USAJOBS - Students and Recent Graduates Jobs

Also review this one USAJOBS - Search Jobs

IT management jobs, many in security, currently have the most job openings in the Gov Jobs database USAJOBS - Top Occupations in Demand

IT job postings here USAJOBS - Search Jobs

I hope this helps.

Two thing about pay grade and advancement within the federal govt. Most will start at a GS-7 or GS-9 depending on education and work experience...what is so great about this field is the incredible potential to move up quickly. In fact you'll notice some job descriptions for a GS-13 require a three year contract, because they know how high the demand is.