Article bashes Harvard Extension ALM Grad

[rlb4104]

The author compares the subject's grad program with the admissions rate of the College undergrad program. Comparing grad and undergrad admissions criteria would be silly at any school.

The author also claims Harvard College does not accept HES credits toward their degrees - which is untrue. They do.

As for the charge of "it's misleading." Well, maybe only if you don't know how universities work. Apparently, many people don't. That's okay. We'll educate them! ?

Yeah, I can't speak for every single course or every single program, but generally speaking the Harvard Faculty of Arts and Sciences (FAS) that runs HES doesn't waste time teaching non-credit courses at their own university. There are probably examples of summer school courses or low-level "gatekeeper" courses that end up not fulfilling graduation requirements for HC, but several of my ALM (English) courses counted for dual-credit and included HC undergrads, so I know that claim is categorically false. 

The retort to that might be "Well, those were actually HC courses that were offered to HES students as well," but I don't think that distinction helps a naysayers' case. 

And as to the larger point of how much or how little recognition one should get for an HES degree: it depends. 

I'm getting an ALM in English (currently writing the thesis, expected graduation in March 2024), and in my case the GSAS doesn't offer an AM in that subject. You can either get an AB in English from the College or a Ph.D in English from GSAS: it's possible to ask to be awarded for a non-terminal AM along the way to the doctorate, but the requirements for that degree actually appear to be less than what an ALM calls for, yet it's still not an actual program you can apply for. So with that understanding, if at some point I make the claim that I "have a master's degree in English from Harvard," that would be both factually correct and defensible, even to people who understand how Harvard works.

I'll also confess, though, that my ALM in English is not something that's ever going to come up in any academic hiring conversation since I do not work in that field at all. (Far from it, frankly.) It's listed on my resume under a general education tab as simply "Master of Liberal Arts from Harvard University," which would probably rankle some Harvard alumni, but not enough for me to care. "Harvard Extension School" and "Extension Studies" are not things I care to explain in my situation, but I also won't be in circumstances where I'd be confused for a GSAS grad either. I just wanted to get back into the study of English and literature, and the fact that Harvard offered a distance option was just good fortune for me. 

I *think* where the rub might be is at the ALB level, where someone with an ALB in History (for example) from Harvard University might try and pass of that degree as being qualitatively the same as an AB in History from Harvard College. In that case, the distinction is much more significant. That doesn't mean I agree with the "Extension Studies" term hang-up, but I can sympathize with HC wanting to protect its brand.

[MNomadic]

The author compares the subject's grad program with the admissions rate of the College undergrad program. Comparing grad and undergrad admissions criteria would be silly at any school.

The author also claims Harvard College does not accept HES credits toward their degrees - which is untrue. They do.

These things immediately stood out to me as well. The article essentially bashes the guy's grad degree because he didn't have to send HS transcripts or ACT/SAT scores? Way to show a lack of education and credibility in your attempt to belittle someone else's education and credibility...

With that said, I do think it's important to be more specific about what your official degree is on things like applications, resumes, etc. but the article is bashing a quick blurb in his bio where specific details wouldn't be expected from anyone. And the article certainly didn't comment on the lack of details from his Georgetown Bachelor's.

Christopher holds a bachelor’s degree from Georgetown and a master’s degree from Harvard.

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/expe...her-f-rufo

[Stanislav]

He could have gotten that position with any degree or no degree, to be honest. This is a DeSantis appointee we're talking about.

Had me at DeSantis 

Had me at Rufo. He is a celebrity on his own right, the very snake we should "thank" for the Critical Race Theory moral panic. His Harvard degree is legitimate; the rest of his career is a deliberate fraud. Dangerous one at that.

[InItForFun]

Cross posting from another HES discussion:

I have to chime in on this.  HES is 100% the “real Harvard.”  It’s one of the 12 degree granting schools of Harvard and is more than 100 years old.  Is it Harvard College?  No, but neither is the Harvard Kennedy School and that’s still “real Harvard.”  

HES is the second largest degree granting school st Harvard University, graduates receive Harvard University degrees at Harvard Commencement in Harvard Yard alongside all other Harvard Schools, and the president of the graduate student government is an HES student right now.  Harvard College students can take over 200 HES classes for credit in the Summer, and many classes are virtually identical, including faculty, to the classes taught in other Harvard schools.

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In my opinion, anyone who bashes HES are those who tried the program and flunked out, or knows that they don't have the IQ to do a degree there. I mean, if Harvard says it is a bona fide degree from Harvard University, then who is anybody else to dispute that?

Harvard started it by directing HES students to make it clear that they're HES students and giving the programs weird degree titles. So, it's really Harvard that doesn't want HES graduates to be mixed up with the rest of Harvard. 

This is all schools at Harvard.  They make a big deal that everyone has a different degree based on school, so if I know your degree I know your school (because everyone, including Extension, have their degrees awarded by Harvard University, not by the school).  

Only the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences can issue a Master of Science or a Master if Arts, for example.  The Graduate School of Design issues a Master of Architecture, the Graduate School of Education issues a Master of Education, the Chan School of Public Policy issues a Master of Public Policy, and the Extension School issues a Master of Liberal Arts.  There are a few exceptions but that’s by and large how it works.

[jsd]

Extension School issues a Master of Liberal Arts.

A Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies.

[sanantone]

Cross posting from another HES discussion:

I have to chime in on this.  HES is 100% the “real Harvard.”  It’s one of the 12 degree granting schools of Harvard and is more than 100 years old.  Is it Harvard College?  No, but neither is the Harvard Kennedy School and that’s still “real Harvard.”  

HES is the second largest degree granting school st Harvard University, graduates receive Harvard University degrees at Harvard Commencement in Harvard Yard alongside all other Harvard Schools, and the president of the graduate student government is an HES student right now.  Harvard College students can take over 200 HES classes for credit in the Summer, and many classes are virtually identical, including faculty, to the classes taught in other Harvard schools.

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In my opinion, anyone who bashes HES are those who tried the program and flunked out, or knows that they don't have the IQ to do a degree there. I mean, if Harvard says it is a bona fide degree from Harvard University, then who is anybody else to dispute that?

Harvard started it by directing HES students to make it clear that they're HES students and giving the programs weird degree titles. So, it's really Harvard that doesn't want HES graduates to be mixed up with the rest of Harvard. 

This is all schools at Harvard.  They make a big deal that everyone has a different degree based on school, so if I know your degree I know your school (because everyone, including Extension, have their degrees awarded by Harvard University, not by the school).  

Only the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences can issue a Master of Science or a Master if Arts, for example.  The Graduate School of Design issues a Master of Architecture, the Graduate School of Education issues a Master of Education, the Chan School of Public Policy issues a Master of Public Policy, and the Extension School issues a Master of Liberal Arts.  There are a few exceptions but that’s by and large how it works.

The School of Public Health and Harvard Medical School also offer a Master of Science. 

What other college or university offers a major in extension studies?

[Sagan]

Harvard University has 12 degree-granting schools and colleges. It requires this type of distinction -from graduates of only one. If you get a bachelor's by attending Harvard College, no one says you should specify that over "Harvard University." The only exception is Harvard Extension.

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Only the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences can issue a Master of Science or a Master if Arts, for example. The Graduate School of Design issues a Master of Architecture, the Graduate School of Education issues a Master of Education, the Chan School of Public Policy issues a Master of Public Policy, and the Extension School issues a Master of Liberal Arts. There are a few exceptions but that’s by and large how it works.

But NONE of them require the graduate to list the specific college, and NONE of them put the specific college IN the degree title. One doesn't earn a Master of Liberal Arts. One earns a Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies - (Concentration). Huge difference.

If you earn an MEd, you can list it as "Master of Education, Harvard University" and no one blinks. It's only the Extension School that enforces the additional distinction.

[posabsolute]

The Harvard name draws so much attention, much more than the other ivys I feel. You could do the UPenn MCIT all online and never set a foot on campus and nobody would care, but Harvard, now people gonna look into how you got in there..

All the props to those who do their master's at the extension school, I would never argue the quality of the degree itself and the hard work required to complete it; at the end of the day tho, people expect if you went to Harvard you are one of the 3% that was selected to go (being an academic achiever or having rich parents with connections), the hardest part of Harvard is to get into Harvard, not completing the degree.

Because it draws so much attention, if it were me, I would be following their guidelines for listing the degree. I would emphasize that little story they use (tiny percentages complete the degree, quality, professors, etc) to prop up the extension school.

There is always the other side saying yes but I went to Harvard, and it's true, but do you really want to paint yourself in a corner and have to explain all the "yeah but", when even the Harvard extension school does not want you to list your degree as a Master in X.

If you are interested in the extension school, it's a bit old but, I would recommend reading these 2 blogs from the same person.

https://archive.blogs.harvard.edu/lamont/ (you can search for harvard, he blogs less about that these days)
https://harvardextended.blogspot.com/

[ThatBankDude]

I am unsure what a Harvard degree looks like but I like how Duke did our diplomas. It is obvious it is from Duke but also states having completed the requirements of the Fuqua School of Business.
If Harvard just did normal degree naming and stated the student completed the requirements of the Extension School, I think it’d be a happy medium.

[Charles Fout]

If people are having that reaction to HES, then that is the reputation HES has whether members of this forum agree with it or not. UTD actually has a pretty well-ranked business school with a good reputation. I think people get too caught up in the name recognition of a university among the general public, but what really matters is the reputation of a specific degree program or department among peers within your field. UTD attracts a lot of international students.

The problem with such a determination is sample size. I only know two HES grads beyond what I would consider an acquaintance. One has problems because sometimes IT managers like to be...erm...precious about their education. My old coworker had a degree from UT Austin and was mocked for not having a UNT degree from our friendly neighborhood power trip in a suit who got his degree from UNT. The other got his ALM in Cybersecurity and a BSBA from WGU, he swears no one has ever hassled him.

Of the people I've met who discuss HES, very few even mention having real problems with the degree unless they're interviewing for a role with someone who went to Real Harvard and thinks that HES isn't Real Harvard

Very sad. A clear case of the politics of personal destruction. This man has nothing to hide or be ashamed of regarding his HES degree. I am committed to not engage in political arguments on this forum. That said. Even though I consider myself to be very conservative I do wish that  Ron DeSantis and my own governor, Glen Youngkin, were not so eager to fight the culture war in the arena of higher education or even education - full stop.