Path to MSW with no degree and 52!

[BELEEMA]

Hi , I would truly appreciate your guidance. I have been in the Clinical Research arena for 30 years but would like to make a career switch to counseling/therapy . I have no degree so would need to start fresh - from 0!. 

In North Carolina I have the option of BSW that has a path to licensure  as a "therapist" but ultimately I think I would like to go onto a MSW as I would like to have my own practice and work within hospitals ( including VA - and I read that government institutions would require Masters at minimum) . I am looking to incorporate certain modalities into therapy - example EFT, Hypnotherapy etc. 

Do you think a path to MSW would be  feasible with one of the Big Three as a starting point?
Only issue is - MATH  - arghhh ... I can do basics and may do ok with stats etc as I have worked with some of that over the year in my roles but I literally have grade 8 math!

Suggestions and thoughts would be appreciated.


Your Location: NC, USA
Your Age:52
What kind of degree do you want?:Ultimately Masters in Social Work but BA could be in Social Work or BA in Psy
Current Degree, Credits ( of any sort): None , although I have worked in the clinical research field in South Africa, UK and USA for 30 years. I have certificates in pharmacology from South Africa but it's not something that could transfer as it was standalone certificates and doubt I could reach the relevant College at this point.
Budget: Overall - BA/MSW : Do you think $20,000 would do it? I would like to cashflow this where possible
Commitments: Work as consultant so I limit work to 40hrs a week, Single so my time is almost my own 
Dedicated time to study: 15-20hrs a week easily ( 2-3 hrs a evening and 10hrs over weekends)
Timeline: I want to finish as fast as possible
Tuition assistance/reimbursement: None

[studyingfortests]

Not only is the path to an MSW feasible using one of the Big Three, I and a friend of mine have done it (I have my MSW, he is in his last semester), and I have another friend taking the same route who will be starting his MSW in the fall. And I was older than you when I started.

Your path will be slightly different because you have no college credits to start with, but this should not pose a major hassle.

I (and two other friends of mine) personally went the TESU route, which is more expensive than the UMPI route, but in your case, UMPI might make more sense since you have no college credits to start with. The trick is, TESU will require 16 credits earned from institutionally accredited colleges, from somewhere, to transfer in, or you can earn them at TESU.

Regardless of whether you choose UMPI or TESU, I think those will probably be better options than Excelsior. Charter Oak, in my opinion, is not remotely worth considering; they've done a fabulous job of ruining what was once a really good degree completion program.

You can earn most of your undergraduate credits at Sophia.org. That's about $100/month, and if you are really diligent, you can probably knock out 18-21 credits/month through Sophia. Others with more knowledge can help with how best to navigate TESU's requirement to earn 16 accredited credits if you go that route. I chose TESU because its general education requirements are among the most flexible, there's no foreign language requirement, and, being a math phobe, I liked being able to earn my math credit using CSM Learn, which is interesting and not your typical math course. TESU accepts it as your math credit; I don't know if UMPI does.

The route I and my two friends took was to earn credits through Sophia and Coopersmith (and I did a few CLEP exams, but now Sophia has pretty much all the coursework, making the CLEPs less valuable.). Transferred into TESU, took the two required courses (cornerstone and capstone), and graduated.

During my first-and-last semester at TESU, I applied to MSW programs. I was accepted at both schools I applied to and started my MSW just a few weeks after finishing my BA.

There are a bunch of options for the MSW, but I'll save you the several weeks of research I did: Western New Mexico University is where I went. It's an excellent, school, with the most flexibility of any program I found. You can take as many or as few credits per semester (within reason) as you wish, faculty are great; I didn't have any professors who were awful, and only one I'd classify as "bad" (only because she basically ghosted the class). Everyone else was outstanding, the administration is very accessible and helpful. It's a small school (about 2800 students total) that's been around for 100+ years, part of the NM state university system. And it is among the least expensive online programs in the country at about $35K all in for the two-year non-adavnced standing.

As long as you have a strong GPA for the classes you take at TESU or UMPI (3.0 or better), and write a compelling Statement of Purpose (your admissions essay), you will likely get in; because they are a virtual program, they can increase or decrease faculty as needed to meet student demand.

20K won't get you through both, obviously, but FAFSA direct unsubsidized student loans are available to pay for your MSW, so you can pay cash for your undergrad (Unless your income is low enough to qualify for Pell grants in undegrad). I don't know what the cost would be at UMPI, but I suspect, based on what I understand, that it would likely be a bit less than TESU. At TESU you're looking at about $7-8K +/- all in if you take the route I took. You have to add into that the cost of the 16 RA credits you'll need, which you can earn at a community college or other sources. That can be as cheap as $750, perhaps even less.

Outside of the RA credits, you should be able to complete the undergrad in maybe a year if you're putting 15-20 hours/week into it. The MSW, my friend went full time and also worked full time, so that's doable. Keep in mind, the MSW will require about 900 hours of practicum at an appropriate agency. Most agencies do not pay their practicum students, but paid practica do exist (I was lucky enough to get one) and WNMU definitely allows them (some schools do not.)

Fee free to message me if you have other questions. And good luck! There were many students in their 40s, 50s, 60s when I was at WNMU, so you won't be alone.

[bjcheung77]

@BELEEMA, Welcome to the board, great initial intro post with basic addendum and template details.  Just a quick question, are you planning just MSW or would you be pivoting to different yet similar roles such as Counselling or Family Therapy, etc?  It really depends how you want to play your cards, since you mentioned a BA Psych, you can or may want to get the TESU or UMPI BA Psych, if you can get away with a minor, you can do the TESU BALS Psych or UMPI BLS Psych and ladder that to a Walden MS Psych and lastly join the PSY CHI Society if you want to stay in the field of Psychology.  If you want to pivot to Counselling or Family Therapy, get the Masters of your choice at Kairos University, you can decide which way to go and maybe even go for the Kairos Doctorate...

Here is a possible pathway you may want to investigate: https://kairos.edu/academics/programs/
MASTER OF ARTS IN COUNSELING
MASTER OF ARTS IN MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERAPY
DOCTOR OF PROFESSIONAL COUNSELING

[Jonathan Whatley]

The OP is interested in working in hospitals particularly VA. VA and federal positions providing psychotherapy generally require professional accreditation, as from APA, CSWE, CACREP, or COAMFTE. Any master's in psychology, such as Walden's, or a non-CACREP degree in counseling, such as Kairos', would not qualify (e.g., VA qualification standards requiring CACREP for LPMHCs).

Although Kairos' MA in MFT holds professional accreditation from COAMFTE, as of fiscal year 2021, VA medical facilities employed literally 100 times as many social workers as MFTs in positions typically providing psychotherapy: 6908 social workers to 69 MFTs (from Figure 2 here). "Officials from all four professional associations that represent LPMHCs and MFTs noted concerns among their membership that there were longstanding preferences among mental health leadership in some VA medical facilities to hire psychologists and social workers." Many additional social workers work for the VA and for hospitals in roles adjacent to psychotherapy.

---

Charter Oak, in my opinion, is not remotely worth considering; they've done a fabulous job of ruining what was once a really good degree completion program.

One situation in which Charter Oak is still worth considering is for a student going for social work who's eligible for some form of tuition assistance that's specific to undergrad, whether Pell Grant or employer. The play would be to choose carefully from alt-credit Charter Oak still accepts, and low-cost and flexible RA, to complete gen eds and free electives, then take major courses from Charter Oak's recently launched social work program to complete their BSW. Charter Oak now extends in-state tuition to all. Although it is in pre-candidacy with the CSWE, it would be surprising if it didn't achieve accreditation. An CSWE BSW would then permit the student to take an advanced standing (accelerated) MSW circa 36 semester hours, meaning materially less graduate tuition cost than a non-advanced-standing MSW circa 60 sh.

[studyingfortests]

One situation in which Charter Oak is still worth considering is for a student going for social work who's eligible for some form of tuition assistance that's specific to undergrad, whether Pell Grant or employer. The play would be to choose carefully from alt-credit Charter Oak still accepts, and low-cost and flexible RA, to complete gen eds and free electives, then take major courses from Charter Oak's recently launched social work program to complete their BSW. Charter Oak now extends in-state tuition to all. Although it is in pre-candidacy with the CSWE, it would be surprising if it didn't achieve accreditation. An CSWE BSW would then permit the student to take an advanced standing (accelerated) MSW circa 36 semester hours, meaning materially less graduate tuition cost than a non-advanced-standing MSW circa 60 sh.

I considered the BSW to advanced standing MSW route, but, unless Charter Oak did something completely off-brand for them and accepted a bunch of quickly-completed alt credits (which I have real questions as to whether CSWE would even allow), it's hard to imagine a BSW-to-advanced standing-MSW route as being faster than a Sophia-powered bachelors to a non-advanced standing route. We really won't know until and if COSC gains CSWE accreditation, which is far less certain when they aren't even in candidacy.

On a point related to the VA issue, there is a distinct hierarchy in the VA, at least in CA, where social workers re just below psychologists in terms of scope and respect, and the other masters professions (MFT, LPC) are not held in as high regard (this from several MFTs working within the system.)

It's pretty hard to argue in favor of any other masters-level mental health profession when social workers have the widest scope in all 50 states. There are lots of things MSWs can do that MFT and LPCs cannot, but nothing MFT/LPCs can do that MSWs cannot.

[Jonathan Whatley]

I considered the BSW to advanced standing MSW route, but, unless Charter Oak did something completely off-brand for them and accepted a bunch of quickly-completed alt credits (which I have real questions as to whether CSWE would even allow), it's hard to imagine a BSW-to-advanced standing-MSW route as being faster than a Sophia-powered bachelors to a non-advanced standing route.

It probably wouldn't be faster overall. The subtotal cost of the MSW part would be less.

Charter Oak still accepts some individual Sophia courses, some individual SDC courses (with 80% grades), and CLEPs and DSSTs. The key reason degreeforum has pulled back from Charter Oak is that the combination of Charter Oak's restrictions on ACE/NCCRS providers, Excelsior's closing the UExcel program which was a key source of upper level and major or concentration requirements in many Big Three degree plans, and DSST's pulling back over time from offering upper level credits which was another key source, hugely reduced possibilities of completing a major or concentration at Charter Oak mostly with alt-credit.

But if your major or concentration is accounted for by credit that isn't course-provider alt-credit – if it's from Charter Oak, another RA, international equivalent, ACE/NCCRS workplace training e.g., military, or portfolio assessment – you can still use carefully chosen alt-credit to fill out free electives, and maybe all gen eds except the new DEI requirement (and that's probably fairly cheap to fulfill RA, e.g., from ASU UL or a CC).

Charter Oak also made one big student-friendly change in 2023, extending in-state tuition to all, currently 329 per semester hour.

[BELEEMA]

THANK YOU all for your input - I need to review later this evening to take it all in but some quick notes . I do think MSW is the route because I do want 1) flexibility to work in gov institutions like VA and 2) I am not necessarily tied to NC in the future so it appears from some reading that transferring with licensure at MSW level maybe easier(?) than with Masters FT  for example. My vision is working with EFT, Hypnosis,EMDR etc within all settings including VA, including imagery( Hypnosis) in end of life ( cancer) scenarios . I would work alongside medical teams but licensure will place me in position to bring these options to the table and it would be covered by Insurance for patients. I think weighing all of these the route MSW is my best option. I couldn't find a low cost BSW to start with which is why I thought BA PSY to MSW ( granted it would take longer but don't see another options unless I go with something more expensive/less flexible)

My only concern is math - everything else I am pretty confident about . I am just a little uncertain from reviewing all the threads how to go about acquiring the 16 RA credits needed to transfer in . I like the idea of the CSM learn and started that a few days ago . I am about 35% in and it seems doable! so this is a consideration for where I transfer into . Any thoughts on how to accomplish the RA portion ? 

Again thank you!! I am so grateful for the input and advise!

---

Not only is the path to an MSW feasible using one of the Big Three, I and a friend of mine have done it (I have my MSW, he is in his last semester), and I have another friend taking the same route who will be starting his MSW in the fall.  And I was older than you when I started.

Your path will be slightly different because you have no college credits to start with, but this should not pose a major hassle.

I (and two other friends of mine) personally went the TESU route, which is more expensive than the UMPI route, but in your case, UMPI might make more sense since you have no college credits to start with.   The trick is, TESU will require 16 credits earned from institutionally accredited colleges, from somewhere, to transfer in, or you can earn them at TESU.  

Regardless of whether you choose UMPI or TESU, I think those will probably be better options than Excelsior. Charter Oak, in my opinion, is not remotely worth considering; they've done a fabulous job of ruining what was once a really good degree completion program.  

You can earn most of your undergraduate credits at Sophia.org.  That's about $100/month, and if you are really diligent, you can probably knock out 18-21 credits/month through Sophia.  Others with more knowledge can help with how best to navigate TESU's requirement to earn 16 accredited credits if you go that route.  I chose TESU because its general education requirements are among the most flexible, there's no foreign language requirement, and, being a math phobe, I liked being able to earn my math credit using CSM Learn, which is interesting and not your typical math course. TESU accepts it as your math credit; I don't know if UMPI does.

The route I and my two friends took was to earn credits through Sophia and Coopersmith (and I did a few CLEP exams, but now Sophia has pretty much all the coursework, making the CLEPs less valuable.).  Transferred into TESU, took the two required courses (cornerstone and capstone), and graduated.

During my first-and-last semester at TESU, I applied to MSW programs. I was accepted at both schools I applied to and started my MSW just a few weeks after finishing my BA.

There are a bunch of options for the MSW, but I'll save you the several weeks of research I did: Western New Mexico University is where I went. It's an excellent, school, with the most flexibility of any program I found. You can take as many or as few credits per semester (within reason) as you wish, faculty are great; I didn't have any professors who were awful, and only one I'd classify as "bad" (only because she basically ghosted the class).  Everyone else was outstanding, the administration is very accessible and helpful. It's a small school (about 2800 students total) that's been around for 100+ years, part of the NM state university system. And it is among the least expensive online programs in the country at about $35K all in for the two-year non-adavnced standing.

As long as you have a strong GPA for the classes you take at TESU or UMPI (3.0 or better), and write a compelling Statement of Purpose (your admissions essay), you will likely get in; because they are a virtual program, they can increase or decrease faculty as needed to meet student demand.

20K won't get you through both, obviously,  but FAFSA direct unsubsidized student loans are available to pay for your MSW, so you can pay cash for your undergrad (Unless your income is low enough to qualify for Pell grants in undegrad).  I don't know what the cost would be at UMPI, but I suspect, based on what I understand, that it would likely be a bit less than TESU.  At TESU you're looking at about $7-8K +/- all in if you take the route I took.  You have to add into that the cost of the 16 RA credits you'll need, which you can earn at a community college or other sources. That can be as cheap as $750, perhaps even less.

Outside of the RA credits, you should be able to complete the undergrad in maybe a year if you're putting 15-20 hours/week into it.  The MSW, my friend went full time and also worked full time, so that's doable.  Keep in mind, the MSW will require about 900 hours of practicum at an appropriate agency. Most agencies do not pay their practicum students, but paid practica do exist (I was lucky enough to get one) and WNMU definitely allows them (some schools do not.)

Fee free to message me if you have other questions.  And good luck!  There were many students in their 40s, 50s, 60s when I was at WNMU, so you won't be alone.

Thank you ! my concern is math so I do need to find somewhere where the CSM would be accepted. I will look out for advise on the 16 RA credits as I am a bit stuck on that . I appreciate this so much - really helps to know its doable in midlife.

---

@BELEEMA, Welcome to the board, great initial intro post with basic addendum and template details.  Just a quick question, are you planning just MSW or would you be pivoting to different yet similar roles such as Counselling or Family Therapy, etc?  It really depends how you want to play your cards, since you mentioned a BA Psych, you can or may want to get the TESU or UMPI BA Psych, if you can get away with a minor, you can do the TESU BALS Psych or UMPI BLS Psych and ladder that to a Walden MS Psych and lastly join the PSY CHI Society if you want to stay in the field of Psychology.  If you want to pivot to Counselling or Family Therapy, get the Masters of your choice at Kairos University, you can decide which way to go and maybe even go for the Kairos Doctorate...

Here is a possible pathway you may want to investigate: https://kairos.edu/academics/programs/
MASTER OF ARTS IN COUNSELING
MASTER OF ARTS IN MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERAPY
DOCTOR OF PROFESSIONAL COUNSELING

THANK YOU - so appreciated ! I did post a bit more about why I think the MSW but will also take the time after work today to review these links

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I considered the BSW to advanced standing MSW route, but, unless Charter Oak did something completely off-brand for them and accepted a bunch of quickly-completed alt credits (which I have real questions as to whether CSWE would even allow), it's hard to imagine a BSW-to-advanced standing-MSW route as being faster than a Sophia-powered bachelors to a non-advanced standing route.

It probably wouldn't be faster overall. The subtotal cost of the MSW part would be less.

Charter Oak still accepts some individual Sophia courses, some individual SDC courses (with 80% grades), and CLEPs and DSSTs. The key reason degreeforum has pulled back from Charter Oak is that the combination of Charter Oak's restrictions on ACE/NCCRS providers, Excelsior's closing the UExcel program which was a key source of upper level and major or concentration requirements in many Big Three degree plans, and DSST's pulling back over time from offering upper level credits which was another key source, hugely reduced possibilities of completing a major or concentration at Charter Oak mostly with alt-credit.

But if your major or concentration is accounted for by credit that isn't course-provider alt-credit – if it's from Charter Oak, another RA, international equivalent, ACE/NCCRS workplace training e.g., military, or portfolio assessment – you can still use carefully chosen alt-credit to fill out free electives, and maybe all gen eds except the new DEI requirement (and that's probably fairly cheap to fulfill RA, e.g., from ASU UL or a CC).

Charter Oak also made one big student-friendly change in 2023, extending in-state tuition to all, currently 329 per semester hour.

Thank you for this and the links to the VA data - I had read this in many forums that MSW would be route to take if you ever wanted to engage with VA . I would like to place myself in this position. I will review all the advise/information carefully - again really appreciate the guidance

[Jonathan Whatley]

I do think MSW is the route because I do want 1) flexibility to work in gov institutions like VA and 2) I am not necessarily tied to NC in the future so it appears from some reading that transferring with licensure at MSW level maybe easier(?) than with Masters FT  for example. My vision is working with EFT, Hypnosis,EMDR etc within all settings including VA, including imagery( Hypnosis) in end of life ( cancer) scenarios . I would work alongside medical teams but licensure will place me in position to bring these options to the table and it would be covered by Insurance for patients. I think weighing all of these the route MSW is my best option.

You're on a great track!

My only concern is math - everything else I am pretty confident about . […] I like the idea of the CSM learn and started that a few days ago . I am about 35% in and it seems doable! so this is a consideration for where I transfer into .

It sounds like you've got this!

But please don't rule out an option like UMPI solely because it has a math requirement other than CSM. We know alternatives like Sophia and ASU UL that I have every confidence you'd also complete quickly.

I am just a little uncertain from reviewing all the threads how to go about acquiring the 16 RA credits needed to transfer in . […]  Any thoughts on how to accomplish the RA portion ?

A few good places to start:

• Free 3 semester hour online course from Jacksonville State University. They rotate the subject of the course. For Fall 2024 it's FIN 211 Financial Literacy.
  
• TECEP credit by examination tests from TESU [program homepage] [list of tests] are mostly 3 sh each, and count as RA credit at TESU and at most schools we discuss, although they don't count as "residency" credit within TESU except for active-duty military. They're graded pass/fail (and I don't believe a fail would appear on your transcript). You can self-study for TECEPs with each exam's free test description. You could also subscribe to InstantCert and/or Study.com to access their interactive study materials for several TECEPs. (You would not need Study.com's highest-price College Accelerator plan to use it just to prepare for outside exams.) When you're ready to register to take an exam, you pay $52 per sh lower level, $77 upper level.
  
• Arizona State University Universal Learner (formerly Earned Admissions) online courses [program homepage] [list of courses] cost $25 per course to start. If you complete the requirements by the end of your eligibility and you're happy with your grade, you pay $400 per course to have it transcripted. Most courses are 3 or 4 sh.
  
• Check out the degreeforum wiki's Obscure Credits page. You might see something that calls out to you.
  
• Check out community colleges near you.
  

[studyingfortests]

THANK YOU all for your input - I need to review later this evening to take it all in but some quick notes . I do think MSW is the route because I do want 1) flexibility to work in gov institutions like VA and 2) I am not necessarily tied to NC in the future so it appears from some reading that transferring with licensure at MSW level maybe easier(?) than with Masters FT  for example. My vision is working with EFT, Hypnosis,EMDR etc within all settings including VA, including imagery( Hypnosis) in end of life ( cancer) scenarios . I would work alongside medical teams but licensure will place me in position to bring these options to the table and it would be covered by Insurance for patients. I think weighing all of these the route MSW is my best option.

I did pretty extensive research before deciding on the MSW, and I think you are right on the money.  Interestingly, while in my practicum, I ran across a whole bunch of MFTs who wished they had gone the MSW route, but no one who was an MSW wishing they had gone the MFT route.   I do recommend, since you will be working clinically, that you choose a program that has a bunch of clinically-focused electives.  (Some MSW programs advertise a "trauma track" or "clinical track", but this is really just talking about the 9 credits of elective courses, since CSWE largely locks down the remaining 51 credits.). At WNMU, I was able to choose electives (domestic violence, advanced case formulation, trauma and addiction) that filled those electives and essentially gave me additional cliinical skill. But the generalist curriculum dictated by CSWE has plenty of clinical practice in it.  Also, getting a clinical placemenet for your practicum will be crucial, and thus, choosing a school that will allow you to find your own placement, rather than one that picks a placement for you, will be crucial. If you can find it, your best option is probably a residential high-acuity mental health program. These are the "step down" facilities that clients go to after coming off of mental health holds. You'll be exposed to just about every type of disorder but without the risk of people with homicidal ideation and unmanaged psychosis that you would find in an inpatient setting, and it will give you incredibly strong background

UMPI, from what I have read here, does have some advantages in terms of cost and speed. I've heard folks say that they had no problem getting through the Sophia math, but for me, it's just not something that comes easily to me which is why CSMLearn was such a great option.  Even if UMPI does not accept it as a math credit, they should honor it as an elective, so you pretty much win either way.  I jammed on it and knocked out the whole course in a weekend.

If you decide to to TESU, the TECEP credits might be the fastest and cheapest option for RA credits. though the others that Jonathan mentioned would all be reasonable options.

[indigoshuffle]

There are others here that can probably more fully answer your query than I can as I am not a social worker, BUT I work in a hospital, a couple hospitals actually. I would say from what I've seen is that those with the LSCW or MSW are more visible inside of the hospital, have various clinical roles, and some work literally shoulder to shoulder with the nurses in the ER and other settings. I don't know what it entails to become one, but based on what I see and what you desire, I would say go for that. They also make salaries comparable to RNs.