Traditional College Flack

[alissaroot]

Many of us on the board are older students. Many of us are working parents with full time jobs. It would be nearly impossible to finish a degree the old fashioned way with all these responsibilities. But many of us did do a year at a B&M school, and I tell you the experience is worthwhile. But if I had it to do all over again, here's what I'd do: Many B&M schools take up to 90 transfer credits(or at least 60 credits). I'd test out of the first 60-90 credits, then do my last year at a B&M school. If you're only gonna go to traditional school one year, why not make it your senior year? Wouldn't that be nice, when all your old high school cohorts are just starting their sophmore year, living in that 10X10 closet, you're there in a cool suite dorm, "Hey guys, almost done over here!" LOL That'd show 'em then, they'd eat their words when you have Your State College Here diploma in 2 years and they're not halfway done! If I were young and childless, that's how I'd play it. Just my $0.02. Hope I don't get flack for suggesting it, but I'd think about it if I were still in high school, like you.

[barcotta]

Ruddi -

Many people would reserve judgement until they saw what you were able to do with your degree...

I LOVE this post. Some of the more common approaches to this issue have been discussed elsewhere in this thread--but you hit on a couple of things that I would really like to explore with you.

Many people would reserve judgement until they saw what you were able to do with your degree.

This is such a loaded statement. Who are the many? Assumably, it's anyone and everyone who was called upon to evaluate the circumstance. Would all these people base their judgement on this one person? If he succeeds it's all good and if he fails it's all bad? I'm sure that is not what you've contemplated--but given the TINY percentage of people who follow the non-traditional path--particularly right out of high school--how could any one person have anything else to which they could compare or include in their analysis?

I often tell high school students that they will learn more in their dorm than they will in their classes in their freshman year.

Really???? Well I was never in a dorm so please tell me--what did I miss????

There is also an advantage to entering professional life with a few more years of "life experience" under your belt. I have had students that graduated from my B&M school and entered graduate school at the age of 20. However, graduate degree in hand at 22 - there was a distinct difference in their social and communications skills relative to their older, similarly credentialed peers. They were at a distinct disavantage in the job market.

I basically agree with this in concept--but do you have data, even anecdotal, to back up you "distinct disadvantage" assertion? Again, it seems to me that the sampling group would be so tiny that it would be tough to draw such broad conclusions. If I'm understanding this correctly--you are basically saying that the learning which occurs in the dorm room as a freshman combined with dragging out to four years what could be accomplished in two years AND spending 4X as much money (or more in most cases) is all worth it to negate a "distinct disadvantage" in the job market. No doubt that a 22 yr. old should be more mature, intelligent, savvy etc. than a 20 yr. old. The same would hold true for virtually any age range (24 vs. 22, 30 vs. 28, etc.). But if I'm understanding you correctly, THIS age range is SO important that you should bypass any less expensive and more efficient methods to achieving an undergraduate degree--lest you find yourself at a distinct disadvantage.

Many employers will have reservations about the rigor of dl degrees. In my opinion, a job candidate presenting a dl degree who is only one or two years out of high school would experience great difficulty in the job market. Your accomplishment at such a young age is more likely to reinforce their reservations about distance learning instead of reflecting favorably on your academic ability and motivation.

Now that is a VERY sobering statement. It's actually unlawful to ask someone their age in an interview--but assumably you are figuring that any respectable employer will be able to figure it out based on graduation dates, etc. Nonetheless, I would offer the following: Let's assume you are correct and the young DL degree holder experiences "great difficulty" in seeking employment. It seems to me that one person only needs one job. Do you feel that they would have great difficulty getting ANY job--even an entry level job in the field of their choosing? Wouldn't it be better to be making money for those two years than spending it and going deep into debt? What about the Peace Corp? That would look good on a resume, wouldn't it? What would you think of a DL degree and a year in the Peace Corp? Do you think that might work to close the social and communication skill gap?

I really appreciate the thought and detail you put into your post and am hopeful you will expound on some of these issues. This forum is dominated by folks who are pro-DL, so it's a rare opportunity for us to bounce these issues off of someone who feels as you do (and apparently associates with others who have similar feelings). Thanks.

[cantafforedit]

I think a lot of those persons who has those type of remarks are jealous because they had to go to a brick and mortar school and did not have the choice to do it online , like a lot of us lucky people do now.

besides a lot of employers really don't care how you came about your education as long as you honestly earned it.
2. Most transcripts do not acknowledge that they degree was earned online because of the discrimination that would be involved in it.

[cookderosa]

Really???? Well I was never in a dorm so please tell me--what did I miss????

>>

I was in a dorm for 2 years, so if you don't get an answer I can help you out. I assure you that anything going on in the dorms wasn't what our parents thought went on in the dorms. If you can imagine a year long co-ed sleepover with a bunch of 13th graders and no parents...well....that about sums it up.

[categ]

Really???? Well I was never in a dorm so please tell me--what did I miss????

>>
If you can imagine a year long co-ed sleepover with a bunch of 13th graders and no parents...well....that about sums it up.

You said it, sister! 13th grade....lol.

[skyfall123]

My oldest son is 24 years old. It took him 6 years to accumulate 70 credits. Because he has over 30 credits at the 200 level from CC, he could get a BA Natural Science / Mathematics degree from TESC by knocking off 27 FEMA credits in 2 weekends, taking 6 CLEP/DSST tests and one six credit TESC course.

Instead he is taking 1-2 online courses from the local university. At this pace it will take him another 4-5 years to finish his bachelors....but in reality I know that he will never finish at that pace.

I have a younger son 21, that came to me six months ago and said "Dad, help me get that degree." He will finish 3 online courses in December transfer in 82 credits, and spend six months at TESC finishing either a BA Computer Science or BA Natural Science/Math which will get him into the top rated University of Illinois Masters in Computer Science program.

There are sooooooooooooo many really good Masters programs out there, it makes no sense to delay your bachelors degree.

An online Masters degree is a helluva lot better than no degree.

[cannoda]

I LOVE this post. Some of the more common approaches to this issue have been discussed elsewhere in this thread--but you hit on a couple of things that I would really like to explore with you.



This is such a loaded statement. Who are the many? Assumably, it's anyone and everyone who was called upon to evaluate the circumstance. Would all these people base their judgement on this one person? If he succeeds it's all good and if he fails it's all bad? I'm sure that is not what you've contemplated--but given the TINY percentage of people who follow the non-traditional path--particularly right out of high school--how could any one person have anything else to which they could compare or include in their analysis?



Really???? Well I was never in a dorm so please tell me--what did I miss????



I basically agree with this in concept--but do you have data, even anecdotal, to back up you "distinct disadvantage" assertion? Again, it seems to me that the sampling group would be so tiny that it would be tough to draw such broad conclusions. If I'm understanding this correctly--you are basically saying that the learning which occurs in the dorm room as a freshman combined with dragging out to four years what could be accomplished in two years AND spending 4X as much money (or more in most cases) is all worth it to negate a "distinct disadvantage" in the job market. No doubt that a 22 yr. old should be more mature, intelligent, savvy etc. than a 20 yr. old. The same would hold true for virtually any age range (24 vs. 22, 30 vs. 28, etc.). But if I'm understanding you correctly, THIS age range is SO important that you should bypass any less expensive and more efficient methods to achieving an undergraduate degree--lest you find yourself at a distinct disadvantage.



Now that is a VERY sobering statement. It's actually unlawful to ask someone their age in an interview--but assumably you are figuring that any respectable employer will be able to figure it out based on graduation dates, etc. Nonetheless, I would offer the following: Let's assume you are correct and the young DL degree holder experiences "great difficulty" in seeking employment. It seems to me that one person only needs one job. Do you feel that they would have great difficulty getting ANY job--even an entry level job in the field of their choosing? Wouldn't it be better to be making money for those two years than spending it and going deep into debt? What about the Peace Corp? That would look good on a resume, wouldn't it? What would you think of a DL degree and a year in the Peace Corp? Do you think that might work to close the social and communication skill gap?

I really appreciate the thought and detail you put into your post and am hopeful you will expound on some of these issues. This forum is dominated by folks who are pro-DL, so it's a rare opportunity for us to bounce these issues off of someone who feels as you do (and apparently associates with others who have similar feelings). Thanks.

First, I want to state for the record that I believe strongly in distance learning. As I indicated above my undergrad was obtained via dl - I earned over 120 semester hours in CLEP, ECE and OU credit-by-exam as well as dl courses at LSU over twenty years ago. Over the years I have helped at least five people complete bachelors degrees through the Big 3. I routinely refer my students to dl options as a means of meeting prerequisites for graduate programs and proctor exams for dl students. This being said, I beleive that a traditional degree is a better option for a traditional college-age student.

I'd also like to clarify the basis for my perspective and opinions.
I'm a full-time, tenured professor (B&M masters and doctorate) who routinely advises high school, undergraduate and graduate students as well as interacting with employers. I have actually had the surreal experience of writting a grad school recommendation for a student that was a year-and-a-half out of high school. This student was admitted and completed a Big Ten graduate degree by the age of 21. My perspective is based on my experiences with this student and thousands of others, the experiences of my children and their friends, and interactions with numerous employers.

Let me try to address your questions:

Who are the many? Assumably, it's anyone and everyone who was called upon to evaluate the circumstance. Would all these people base their judgement on this one person? If he succeeds it's all good and if he fails it's all bad? I'm sure that is not what you've contemplated--but given the TINY percentage of people who follow the non-traditional path--particularly right out of high school--how could any one person have anything else to which they could compare or include in their analysis?

Your assumption is indeed what I intended. I believe that most people believe that only the rarerest of individuals are capable of completing a college degree by the age of twenty. It's simply not the norm and such an accomplishment is outside of most individuals' experience. If a school enjoys a broad reputation for academic rigor or an employer has significant experience with a school's graduates, an employer might view such a student completing a 4-year degree in two years as highly intelligent and motivated.

However, I believe that a 20 year old presenting a dl 4-year degree from the Big 3 will not be viewed in the same light. Combining the "TINY percentage" of dl graduates, the rarity of 20 year olds with 4-year degrees and the lack of familiarity with dl degrees , I believe that most employers evaluating a 20-year old with a dl 4-year degree would employ Occam's razor and deduce that a dl and B&M degree are not equivalent.

I see employers as making a gut decision when faced with a 20-year old student with a 4-year dl degree where traditional candidates are available- they will simply take the safe way out and send a polite thanks for applying, but no thanks letter.

Really???? Well I was never in a dorm so please tell me--what did I miss????

It depends. If you are twenty-five or above, you are likely to already have the "life experience" that I referred to in my prior post. For an 18, 19 or 20-year old, I suggest that the gaining of life experience is accelerated in an on-campus environment.

Let's assume you are correct and the young DL degree holder experiences "great difficulty" in seeking employment. It seems to me that one person only needs one job. Do you feel that they would have great difficulty getting ANY job--even an entry level job in the field of their choosing? Wouldn't it be better to be making money for those two years than spending it and going deep into debt? What about the Peace Corp? That would look good on a resume, wouldn't it? What would you think of a DL degree and a year in the Peace Corp? Do you think that might work to close the social and communication skill gap?

When I said "great difficulty" in seeking employment, I meant this as relative to slightly older students with 4-year degrees earned on-campus. I am not suggesting that a 4-year dl degree is toxic and would make an individual unemployable but that a dl traditional-college-age graduate would be at a disadvantage competing with their age peers that have earned on-campus delivered degrees. Of course there are some entry-level jobs for which neither degree would be considered an issue.

I feel that experience in the Peace Corps, the Armed Services, or similar programs would indeed eliminate this disadvantage.

As far as the difference in cost between a Big 3 degree and on-campus programs, it would be appropriate to look at the lifetime value of the degrees.

I'm not going to take the time here to develop suitable assumptions and perform an analysis, but calculating the net present value of cash flows attributable to each of the two alternatives (dl vs. B&M) would answer the question of which degree is more cost-effective. Of course we would need to agree on the assumptions employed. Such an analysis would consider the additional two-years of income accruing to the dl credentialed individual as well as any differences in initial income, frequency of promotion, etc. over a career. We could also run a scenario with two years experience in the Peace Corps after the dl degree and see how it compares. This would be an interesting and fun study to do empirically if the data were available.

[lrgaul]

[SIZE="2"][COLOR="Navy"]The posts that address distance vs. brick and mortar learning are my favorite. I simply can't resist dropping in every time we have threads like this open.

As some of you know, I work in human resources consulting for a Fortune 100 company. I scan approximately sixty resumes a week, and all of them are for exempt-level (professional) tech positions. In some cases, the goal is to recruit new talent right out of college as part of our learning and development program. In other cases, we are seeking experienced executives with twenty years or more of experience. The common theme is that these positions require at least a bachelor's degree and a master's degree is highly preferred. Here is my two cents on this:

If you are twenty-two years old, expect a lot of questions about your education thus far. What else is the recruiter supposed to ask you about? Your experience as a cashier at the hardware store? Probably not. I wouldn't venture to say that distance education has a bad reputation anymore (with a few exceptions), but it is fair to say that some recruiters and hiring managers will react with skepticism (even if we assume that they are the minority).

If you are thirty years old and you have five or more years of relevant business experience, you can probably expect exactly ZERO specific questions about your educational experiences. At this point, recruiters want to talk to you about the previous job positions you have held and why you think you are a "good fit" for the one you are applying to now. Your degree becomes nothing more than a "radio button" that indicates that you are, in fact, a college graduate. This is almost always true. The only real exception will be in cases where someone has attended a "top tier" college. Even when a recruiter prefers a top tier college, this tends to be a geographic preference as ivy leagues are the only truly universally recognized brand names.

Having said that, with a brand new DL bachelor's degree in hand, it is probably fair to say that a twenty-two year old will encounter more questions about his or her education than a thirty year old will. If the twenty-two year old feels comfortable explaining why his or her DL bachelor's degree is equivalent to or superior to a B&M bachelor's degree, and he or she is willing to accept the fact that some employers will view the degree less favorably, then I think going after a DL degree right out of high school (or even sooner) is a great idea indeed. However, if the twenty-two year old wants completely wide open options and very few prodding questions about the education that led to his or her degree, then the traditional route is probably a better bet. This is such a personal decision and there is no right or wrong answer.

Here are a couple of great responses I have heard when I have asked people about their DL degrees.

1) Company A is a remote organization. From what I have gathered from you so far, I will frequently work with colleagues who live and work hundreds of miles away. I think that my proven success in earning an entire bachelor's degree through distance education has positioned me quite well to be successful in this unique environment as well.

2) You are absolutely right! There are a lot of options out there for working adults to earn their degrees. By pursuing this path, it became extremely important for me to learn to work independently while managing a significant number of tasks. More importantly, I learned to really "take charge" of my own experience because obviously I didn't have the luxury of a college professor to constantly remind me of all that I needed to do to be a successful student.

3) Yes, College B was the perfect choice for me. I think it is so important for people to take the opportunity to explore innovative alternatives to the norm. Afterall, I was able to earn my degree in X amount of time, without missing out on other parts of my life. As a busy professional, time management was a critical factor in my decision. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Ruddigore]

I believe that most people believe that only the rarerest of individuals are capable of completing a college degree by the age of twenty. It's simply not the norm and such an accomplishment is outside of most individuals' experience.

It days of old, many students entered college long before 18. Back then, there was no high school, because every thing you would have learned in high school would have already been taught by the end of 8th grade. These days we grow up a lot slower. Not being released into the real world by 22 certainly isn't going to hurt terribly, but it certainly hasn't always been the norm.

However, I believe that a 20 year old presenting a dl 4-year degree from the Big 3 will not be viewed in the same light.

Why? I still don't get it. As someone else said, how will someone know you are 20 rather than 22?

For an 18, 19 or 20-year old, I suggest that the gaining of life experience is accelerated in an on-campus environment.

Yes, it is indeed an experience, but is it worth 80,000 dollars??? Is that good stewardship? (By the way: where I'm at with everything, I would either go to a private college [$20,000+ a year], or do distance education.)

Why do we get college degrees? To run through the rat race or to learn? Being run through the system doesn't appeal to me, partially because I'm homeschooled. May I add that stats for B&M college aren't exactly impressive these days?

Asking more questions than I answer,
Ruddigore

[cinderly]

Hi, Ruddigore.

Ultimately, you have to choose the option that seems right for you and remember that there will be people who question just about every choice you make, especially if your decisions include options outside whatever is considered normal where you live.

Some important points were raised on this thread. DL is a great option for many of us, but there are still limitations, particularly if you're planning to go into a field that still places a premium on B&M learning. (If I wanted to be an engineer, my boss would be a lot less keen on my distance learning activities.) I've said before that talking to potential employers and graduate schools is a smart move. Many HR and admissions representatives are willing to give you a few minutes on the phone or via email to discuss options. (If you can, talk to someone outside of HR in your potential field, too, although I wouldn't just send out random emails to people I'd never met.) Good companies look to the future, so helping potential hires be "good assets" is a wise investment of time.

In days of old, many students entered college long before 18. Back then, there was no high school, because every thing you would have learned in high school would have already been taught by the end of 8th grade. These days we grow up a lot slower. Not being released into the real world by 22 certainly isn't going to hurt terribly, but it certainly hasn't always been the norm.

While that was once true, it's no longer the norm. I've learned the hard way that, while employers value innovative ideas, the ability to blend in and get along with coworkers is equally - if not more - important. Being brilliant at your job isn't always enough. One of the things I might have learned in a B&M school would be the ability to suffer fools, if not gladly, with less apparent irritation than I presently do. (This lack of interpersonal intelligence/skill was a major factor in my decision to leave a job I otherwise loved and is now an official area of "personal development" for me.)

I'm not sure why you've eliminated public colleges & universities entirely from your consideration, but that's your call to make. I think the advice to transfer 90 credits in to a more traditional school is a good option for someone without a lot of work experience - you get the benefit of not having to sit through all the 101 courses and the benefit of having a recognizable (and therefore bankable) university name on your diploma.

Unless you get, say, a Debate Team scholarship. Then I'd advocate - strongly - that you go the four-year route. Free college is good and having extra-curricular activities on your resume will often give you an edge over students with otherwise similar resumes - B&M- or DL-acquired. Diploma snobs are still out there, and many of them are in decision-making roles. With the labor market tightening in many sectors, being an iconoclast may not be the best career move right now.

Another thought - if you go to a B&M school, you get to opt out of the crappy job market for a while (assuming it may improve, which is not a safe assumption since this appears to be new territory for most Americans.) You'll (theoretically) have the rest of your life to work and likely won't get to fully devote yourself to something like school again until you retire - if you're lucky. Why rush into it?

I'm not anti-DL. It was the right choice for me - and many others. Maybe it is for you, too, but I'm encouraging you to do some research to figure out where the potholes are if you do go this less-traveled route.