The Masters Trap

[ss20ts]

towers.

Sigh. This is not your average master's student at University of Chicago. This is a commonly seen student at non-traditional schools, though. 

This explains the Appeal to Emotion and Ad Hominem fallacies and personal attacks. These are tactics people use when they can't make a logical, factual argument. 

https://web.archive.org/web/201410180148...otion.html

Sigh all you want. I said nothing about any particular school. I did provide a factual argument. You just don't like the argument because it doesn't fit into your narrative. Like i said you better hope you're never hit with a curveball.

You don't know anything about my life, and if you don't stop with the personal attacks, I will report you to the admin. You're wishing bad things on someone who was pointing out poor decisionmaking. That is sick. If karma existed, it would hit you.

You provided anecdotes that were irrelevant to the article and to the poor decisions people were addressing. No one once said they don't know how anyone goes into large amounts of debt. The comments were specifically about the types of students who choose to borrow for expensive graduate programs at Ivy Plus schools, not single moms with five kids.

I didn't say I knew anything about your life. I didn't attack you at all. I did not wish bad things on anyone at all. I said you better hope you're never hit with a curveball. That does not say I hope bad things happen to you. 


I didn't provide anecdotes. I provide real examples of real people and how life can change in an instant. 

University of Chicago isn't even part of Ivy Plus. 

https://www.ivyplusnetwork.com/homepage/...iversities

That is the definition of anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is singular situations that may or may not be representative of the target population because the evidence was not collected in a systematic manner. 

The average debt at University of Chicago is high because the program is expensive, not because the majority of their students were thrown a curveball that caused them to live off loans. They chose not to work, they chose to attend school on campus, and they chose to borrow for an extremely expensive program. 

There is no official definition for Ivy Plus, but it just so happens that University of Chicago is on the list you provided. It would help a lot if you took the time to read things through carefully instead of rushing to take offense and personally attack commenters.

I didn't see it on the list. Please hang me by my toe nails while I beg for your forgiveness oh perfect one. I didn't personally attack you at all. Ivy Plus is a network of professional network of alumni from the top global universities. Sounds pretty bogus since Ivy League is supposedly the best of the best. 

[sanantone]

Sigh all you want. I said nothing about any particular school. I did provide a factual argument. You just don't like the argument because it doesn't fit into your narrative. Like i said you better hope you're never hit with a curveball.

You don't know anything about my life, and if you don't stop with the personal attacks, I will report you to the admin. You're wishing bad things on someone who was pointing out poor decisionmaking. That is sick. If karma existed, it would hit you.

You provided anecdotes that were irrelevant to the article and to the poor decisions people were addressing. No one once said they don't know how anyone goes into large amounts of debt. The comments were specifically about the types of students who choose to borrow for expensive graduate programs at Ivy Plus schools, not single moms with five kids.

I didn't say I knew anything about your life. I didn't attack you at all. I did not wish bad things on anyone at all. I said you better hope you're never hit with a curveball. That does not say I hope bad things happen to you. 


I didn't provide anecdotes. I provide real examples of real people and how life can change in an instant. 

University of Chicago isn't even part of Ivy Plus. 

https://www.ivyplusnetwork.com/homepage/...iversities

That is the definition of anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is singular situations that may or may not be representative of the target population because the evidence was not collected in a systematic manner. 

The average debt at University of Chicago is high because the program is expensive, not because the majority of their students were thrown a curveball that caused them to live off loans. They chose not to work, they chose to attend school on campus, and they chose to borrow for an extremely expensive program. 

There is no official definition for Ivy Plus, but it just so happens that University of Chicago is on the list you provided. It would help a lot if you took the time to read things through carefully instead of rushing to take offense and personally attack commenters.

I didn't see it on the list. Please hang me by my toe nails while I beg for your forgiveness oh perfect one. I didn't personally attack you at all. Ivy Plus is a network of professional network of alumni from the top global universities. Sounds pretty bogus since Ivy League is supposedly the best of the best. 

I didn't expect you to graciously admit that you were wrong and apologize. Keep in mind that it was you who tried to correct me.

The Ivy League is a sports association. Overall, they're ranked pretty high, but there are non-Ivy schools ranked higher than some of them. That Ivy Plus Network is unofficial. It's not affiliated with those schools, and it's based in India. Ivy Plus is a concept that predates that website. Yale has its own association of Ivy League and peer schools. The list varies by association.

[Thorne]

Well...this is way beyond off-topic at this point. Besides, I just did a double-take after watching someone who seemingly implied that another person was making illogical arguments due to brain damage claim that the person with brain damage was attacking them when they pretty clearly didn't do anything of the sort. Short of directly addressing this absurdity, I'm going to not-so-smoothly segue back to the original topic after this not-so-subtle statement.

I think there is some room for sympathy, but not a ton. If you went to a top-20 school and haven't done the research to figure out, "Hey, maybe a graduate degree in humanities won't pay off the way I'd like," which is something even a cursory post on Reddit would explain very clearly, I don't think they deserve much sympathy other than that which we would extend to someone who was lied to by admissions. I dealt with something like that with my community college outright misrepresenting the job placement rates for their IT programs (they claimed over 70% placement, but they neglected that 70% of students were already employed and the rest of us never really got offers from anything or anyone, no matter our abilities or skills in the field). I did finish my Bachelor's in IT because it was convenient, but if that hadn't helped me land a job, I certainly wasn't going to go chasing a Master's in IT or Cybersecurity on the off chance that it might give me some ROI, I'd have jumped into another field altogether and cut my losses.

If you grew up affluent and went to a top-notch school, your education should have included some basic economics which would hammer these issues out early. If you didn't pay attention during your $80k degree or are frankly too lazy to care about doing the work because you think your elitism will translate into a good job, you can take a long walk off a short pier. For many other people, especially those who went to middling schools, I have no antipathy to those who spent another $30k+ to get a grad degree after your first degree failed to produce any ROI, but I certainly have no sympathy either. Do some basic research. God only knows you should be able to if you were in a grad program.

[ShotoJuku]

Please Play Nice Everyone!

[wow]

I have no sympathy. Just knowing the demographics of these types of schools, most of these students are not from vulnerable populations. They're applying to PhD programs at Ivy Plus schools; these schools didn't go out and find them. I'm sure they are aware of funded PhD programs, and they probably applied to a funded program at University of Chicago.

It might be different in the internet age, but I went to a prestigious undergrad school and had no idea that you could get a full ride on a Masters or PhD. I thought you had to pay tuition just like an undergrad. Which is why, even though my advisor strongly encouraged me to go to grad school, I didn't even apply. I knew I couldn't afford to pay two to six more years of tuition and I had nobody who would pay for it other than me. Looking back, I realize all these advisors assumed that I knew that the kinds of programs they were recommending me to look into would have been paid. But I didn't come from a family where people got Masters and PhDs, so I had no idea. In my case, going to a hoity-toity school could have afforded me a lot of opportunities. The problem was that the faculty there assumed that I knew what all those opportunities were, and therefore I missed out on a lot of them.

So I can see why some undergrads would pay for masters, because they just don't know. Although now with information being so much more accessible, I would hope it's less of a problem than it was 30 years ago.

[Pats20]

C’mon. If you graduate with a masters in anything from the university of Chicago or any other elite school and Then  can only find a job that pays $37k? That’s on you buddy. If you spend $60k on a masters from any elite school I’m about positive with any effort your investment should payoff within your lifetime of working. 
And The same goes if you spend $10k from a lower tier ra school 

[ReyMysterioso]

C'mon guys, maybe knock it off with all the personal arguments. We can all agree tuition is too high practically everywhere, hence why we're all on this forum.
Student debt is a problem.
A lot of graduate programs are predatory and impractical. It is what it is.
Let's move on and just help each other find useful information.

[dfrecore]

towers.

Sigh. This is not your average master's student at University of Chicago. This is a commonly seen student at non-traditional schools, though. 

This explains the Appeal to Emotion and Ad Hominem fallacies and personal attacks. These are tactics people use when they can't make a logical, factual argument. 

https://web.archive.org/web/201410180148...otion.html

Sigh all you want. I said nothing about any particular school. I did provide a factual argument. You just don't like the argument because it doesn't fit into your narrative. Like i said you better hope you're never hit with a curveball.

I've been hit by curveballs.  You know what would NOT have helped at that point in time - going deeply into debt.  That would have made things WORSE for me, not better.  If my kid is hit by a curveball, you know what I'm NOT going to tell them to do? To go deeply into debt hoping that it will someday pan out.  You know what advice I do NOT give to anyone struggling? To go deeply into debt.

There's a reason for that.  Going into debt NOW in the HOPES that it will pan out someday is not a good plan.  What if it doesn't pan out? If you have to quit school before you finish and can't get a job in your field?  If the job prospects don't improve after you get a degree (or another degree, or a higher degree)?

What if it does pan out? You're still left with a huge debt that will influence your life for many years to come.  You're stuck with jobs that you HAVE to take, because they're the only ones that allow you to pay off your debt - even if you hate your job, or your boss, or whatever.

I just don't see how any of that debt helps. And you're not going to convince me otherwise by telling me sob stories of people who had something happen and they just HAD to go deeply into debt because of it.  The country is FILLED with people who are deeply in student loan debt, and the vast majority are NOT people who had something terrible happen to them, they just chose things without counting the true cost and without understanding what a crushing amount of debt they're getting into.  For every one person who is in the situation you describe, there are probably 100 who just made a bad choice.

I have some sympathy for some individuals, but really, at what point are people to be held accountable for their lives and choices?

[Pats20]

I’m sorry if anyone on this forum thought I was directing my post at them. I was not, I was referring to the article. As far as predatory programs , I’m sure there are. Just as there are predatory car salesmen , finance managers, real estate agents , and just about any other type of business. That’s where growing up and learning that the world can be a mean place, doing your own research on what wild animals are in the forest and their risks before you enter. 

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I’m sorry if anyone on this forum thought I was directing my post at them. I was not, I was referring to the article. As far as predatory programs , I’m sure there are. Just as there are predatory car salesmen , finance managers, real estate agents , and just about any other type of business. That’s where growing up and learning that the world can be a mean place ,doing your own research on what wild animals are in the forest and their risks before you enter.

---

I’m sorry if anyone on this forum thought I was directing my post at them. That was not my intention. I was referring to the article. As far as predatory programs , I’m sure there are. Just as there are predatory car salesmen , finance managers, real estate agents , and just about any other type of business. That’s where growing up and learning that the world can be a mean place ,doing your own research on what wild animals are in the forest and their risks before you enter.

[eLearner]

When ShotoJuku steps in  you know for sure that things have gone too far