Obama's plans for College Tuition

[creationstory]

Gary,
I appreciate what you are saying, and I agree with most of your reasoning but I do disagree with your conclusions for the fix. I applaud how you in your small way are trying to make a difference with your own time and money etc. Your above comments are a sad reflection on what government has become in this country. But how did it get this way? I think that both parties are to blame. I am not a Republican or a Democrat or a libertarian or a constitutionalist. Most of the people on this board would agree with me on that. I am a person who derives his world view and thus my political philosophies from the Bible. As such I am probably one of the most conservative people you'll ever meet, both fiscally and socially. In a nut shell I believe that government should only be concerned about defending its citizens and guaranteeing only the basic rights such as freedom of religion, speech, right to bear arms, fair trial etc. The reason so many people have jumped on what you have said is you believe the government should legislate equality for everyone by guaranteeing a good education. By your own admission government is corrupt beyond belief, hardly the institution you want giving you an opportunity. My idea of the ideal government is one that will give its citizens an opportunity to better themselves. But I also believe that until Christ comes back we will always have people who are poor, middle class, and wealthy. I think that history proves that when people try to give everyone the same exact starting position it fails on a colossal scale. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be concerned about helping those in need such as you have. But that is not the governments place. Individuals and churches should be the ones that lend a helping hand on their own initiative. Another thing that you mentioned when comparing "rich" districts and "poor" districts was the grade difference. That doesn't surprise me but my conclusion is different than yours. I think that "rich" kids are more likely to have responsible parents who will impart to their kids character traits such as a good work ethic, honesty, and responsibility. Now what I am about to say could be considered racist but that is not my intent so please don't take it that way. If you look at the poorer districts most of them will have a majority of African-Americans. Now why is that? I believe that is because their family culture is dysfunctional. We have all seen the statistics where blacks have the highest violent death rate. If you think of the typical 18-30 black male you unfortunately think of somebody who is not very responsible and is directionless in life. They have very little drive to improve their situation. This is a very broad generalization and is becoming true of whites as well as blacks. If you look at African culture you will generally see two common threads, corruption, and a lack of exposure to Christianity. Those two factors combine to create a very dark environment as the dad has no cultural or religious reason to invest in his children. And what do you know the African society almost completely lacks responsible fathers! Even those African Americans who are famous have an absent dad and a very strong mom or grandmother (Oprah, Obama). And these same factors are beginning to influence America today. The simple reason that the government is looked to for everything is because individuals and churches have shirked their responsibilities in helping those who need it. But in my opinion the ultimate reason is that we as a nation have strayed from our Christian background and are turning our back not only on the religion itself but the basic tenants that come from it.

I hope this gives you an idea of where I am coming from. I don’t think I can convince you to see things my way but I wanted to set the record straight so that you know what I base my beliefs on.

Farmerboy

I can agree with you up until the point of African Americans. Only because it is less about race and more about socio-economic class. I'm going to assume you are not familiar with black culture and the fact there does exist a black upper class and black elite. The ones that most people interact with are neither the elite nor the upper class.

There are many many highly educated african americans who try and push themselves to do better. If that were not the case than you wouldn't have seen so many Historically Black Colleges and Universities.

List of HBCUs -- White House Initiative on Historically Black Colleges and Universities

Black culture was pretty strong and united when segregation existed (there were a lot more black business; i am not saying that we should go back to segregation) but a lot of black culture fell thru the cracks during integration.

You also made a point of pointing out the value of the church. Most minorities in this nation latino's and blacks are very religious.

African American Church

The Church in the Southern Black Community: Introduction

They tend to be more religious and involved in the church than other groups.

"The church is the heart of the Sunday celebration. Historically, it has been the center of political, social, economic, religious and educational affairs. The African American church was not only spiritually important, but also culturally unifying. It was the heart of the African American community."

-- African American Church --




It is quite possible that you may not have interacted with elite, or progressive blacks and that is of no fault to you. You named two individuals Obama and Oprah. So... Obama was the son of a Kenyan Senator and Oprah did have a father figure whom she does credit.

Michael Jordan had a strong father figure as did Shaquille O'Neal.

E. Stanley O’Neal a CEO of Merril Lynch Profile: Stan O'Neal walked away with a 161 million dollar package and had a strong father figure ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_O'Neal ) ,

Robert Johnson the owner of the Charlotte Bobcats came from a strong black family Robert L. Johnson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


All i'm showing you is that its really not a matter of race, but a matter of class. The only thing is that you will happen to see a larger amount of blacks in the lower portions of society in comparison to whites; same thing with Latino's in american

my best regards ....

CS

[Farmerboy]

I understand what you are saying there is an upper and lower class. What I was trying to communicate was that lower class blacks make up the bulk of their population and have a higher incidence of violent deaths and neglect than almost any other category.

[creationstory]

I understand what you are saying there is an upper and lower class. What I was trying to communicate was that lower class blacks make up the bulk of their population and have a higher incidence of violent deaths and neglect than almost any other category.

The black lower class does have a high rate of violence and neglect, but it does not make up the bulk of black america

In accordance to numbers blacks aren't much different from whites who are middle class.

"Using this income range puts the number of Black families in the middle class at 9 million or 31.9% of all Black families in 1994. (Keep in mind that 32.3% of all Black families earned incomes below the poverty line during the same period - 1994)."

frontline: the two nations of black america: analysis

Lower class blacks are a slight majority but not a bulk. As I do say again..its more class than race...

[Farmerboy]

And I agree with you that class matters but at the lower class level the blacks have significantly higher crime rates. I am simply expounding my theory. I appriciate you insight!

[creationstory]

at the lower class level the blacks have significantly higher crime rates.

compared to lower class whites and/or lower class hispanics? there sir.. you're probably right!



Imprisonment Rates in the United States, 1994
Group........................... Rate ............................ Compared to White Rate
Total ..............................373 .......................................... 2.1
White People................... 176..................................................1.0
Hispanic People ...............686 .................................................. 3.9
Black People.................... 1489 .............................................. 8.5


The Crime of Black Imprisonment

[Farmerboy]

Sorry for not being specific earlier! I also want to clarify that they are not the only ones, just an example.

[creationstory]

Sorry for not being specific earlier! I also want to clarify that they are not the only ones, just an example.

i wasn't going hard on you. just wanted to clarify some things.

[Professor_Adam]

Here's something for you guys to consider. Perhaps you don't have personal experience with this:

I have a good friend who is a West Point graduate, very well spoken, well mannered and intelligent. He happens to be black. Do you know what my other black friends think about him? They make fun of him for not being "one of them." The ridicule him for "acting white."

He is basically an outcast to them. I find it odd and disturbing at the same time. I talked with him at length about why this is so. He could only offer me that his upbringing was clearly different from most black people, in that his parents always spoke correct English and encouraged him to excel in school. He makes no apologies for being a success. But why does the black community ridicule people like this?

Now here's the other paradox for you to consider. Both my West Point friend and my black friends who ridicule his "white behavior" voted for Barrack Obama???!!! Can someone explain all of this? If time permitted, I could also expound on the treatment of Bill Cosby by the black community -- which is an outrage IMHO.

To me these issues are so intriguing that I've thought about using them as the basis for my master's thesis.

BTW, this is not the first time I've seen behavior like this in my working envinroment, but it's the most pronounced incident I can think of.

[creationstory]

Here's something for you guys to consider. Perhaps you don't have personal experience with this:

I have a good friend who is a West Point graduate, very well spoken, well mannered and intelligent. He happens to be black. Do you know what my other black friends think about him? They make fun of him for not being "one of them." The ridicule him for "acting white."

He is basically an outcast to them. I find it odd and disturbing at the same time. I talked with him at length about why this is so. He could only offer me that his upbringing was clearly different from most black people, in that his parents always spoke correct English and encouraged him to excel in school. He makes no apologies for being a success. But why does the black community ridicule people like this?

Now here's the other paradox for you to consider. Both my West Point friend and my black friends who ridicule his "white behavior" voted for Barrack Obama???!!! Can someone explain all of this? If time permitted, I could also expound on the treatment of Bill Cosby by the black community -- which is an outrage IMHO.

To me these issues are so intriguing that I've thought about using them as the basis for my master's thesis.

BTW, this is not the first time I've seen behavior like this in my working envinroment, but it's the most pronounced incident I can think of.

some members of the black community will mock what is deemed to be white behavior amongst members of their race. african americans are simply a different community.. like why do members of the black community like sports or dancing or are so involved in the church. its a different community that many people won't understand. its simply a culture thing. just like southern blacks are many times different from northern blacks. while new york blacks are different from

like all groups that are disadvantaged they tend to stick together for certain causes or stay close in certain areas. when a leader comes along they support him.

bill cosby is simply showing tough love. some blacks don't like the way he speaks to them. bills tough love is a technique that just might work. if it (discipline and lecturing) comes from a black man rather than a white man what excuse can some blacks make for not doing better. some poorer or lazy blacks simply want to make more excuses.

Chris Rock in one of his skits speaks about the "black vs. n*ggers" i am giving this example to show the differences in the black community.

hope we've been able to help in your thesis... (all of our different posts in this thread)

[Professor_Adam]

like all groups that are disadvantaged they tend to stick together for certain causes or stay close in certain areas. when a leader comes along they support him.

...

Well that's interesting, if true, because it would mean that people will yield their own personal values (no matter how dear) in order to appease their minority group. For instance, my black friends who voted for Obama do not support gay marriage or a repeal of the "don't ask don't tell policy." -- Yes, I asked them. They also don't identify with Obama's life in any way other than -- literally -- his status as being half black, and yet they support him as if he did. To me this kind of behavior is worthy of further study and research.

And I have to object to your idea that they will center on a leader who looks like them. This is not true. The black community does not support Condoleeza Rice and their feelings on Clarence Thomas and Gen. Colin Powell are somewhat mixed. It seems that if a black person is seen as supportive of conservative or Republican ideals (a la Bill Cosby, Thomas Sowell), they are immediately dismissed as being respresentative of their race. Why is this so? And put another way, how come only liberal blacks need apply for leadership roles in that culture?