Is this cool?

[jsd]

if you're claiming to have a degree but the degree is not recognized as a legal degree, that's fraud. fraud definitely seems within the scope of the legislature.

[Thorne]

if you're claiming to have a degree but the degree is not recognized as a legal degree, that's fraud. fraud definitely seems within the scope of the legislature.

To a point, I degree, but there should be some exceptions. Places like Smart.ly (unaccredited MBA with strict entrance requirements), Wozniak's unaccredited school, and EdX's Micromasters programs, as an example, should not be illegal to cite as education on your resume.

Stopping me from founding my own "Thorne Technical University" and issuing myself three PhD's in highly competitive fields is not something I find to be an overreach, logically, but claiming that legitimate education is illegitimate because the US Government doesn't permit it to issue a degree would be.

[DavidHume]

That sounds like some serious overstepping on the part of a state legislature, to determine how a company and potential employees are permitted to do business. I just don't see how a law like that could hold up.

Most states have laws concerning what degrees can be granted in the state. They can't really control what degrees are granted elsewhere. The regulations against using unaccredited degrees are an attempt to make such degrees entirely undesirable and also provide an expected level of confidence in the degrees that are permissable. It definitely puts the onus on the consumer, though. But it's really not all that different than a state having specific requirements that need to be met to use various professional designations like CPA or RN. As those vary by state it's not unreasonable that the standards for claiming BA or PhD would as well.

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if you're claiming to have a degree but the degree is not recognized as a legal degree, that's fraud. fraud definitely seems within the scope of the legislature.

To a point, I degree, but there should be some exceptions. Places like Smart.ly (unaccredited MBA with strict entrance requirements), Wozniak's unaccredited school, and EdX's Micromasters programs, as an example, should not be illegal to cite as education on your resume.

Stopping me from founding my own "Thorne Technical University" and issuing myself three PhD's in highly competitive fields is not something I find to be an overreach, logically, but claiming that legitimate education is illegitimate because the US Government doesn't permit it to issue a degree would be.

I think the micromasters and other such additional education can go on a resume so long as it doesn't inaccurately indicate it is a MSc or such.

Stegner Fellows at Stanford spend two years in classes and attending conferences but do not receive a degree. There are a whole slew of academic fellowships that similarly provide education but no degree that any one that received one would very much add to their resume, just not as a degree.

[a2jc4life]

if you're claiming to have a degree but the degree is not recognized as a legal degree, that's fraud. fraud definitely seems within the scope of the legislature.

Sure.  But an unaccredited degree and an illegitimate degree are, arguably, two different things.  The "degrees" mentioned in the OP aren't even really degrees.  There's no course work or demonstration of competency required.  But there are a number of schools that are perfectly legitimate that either are still in the process of accreditation, or choose to refrain from accreditation because what they teach is counter-cultural and they don't want the governmental strings attached that come with accreditation.  (Religion and alternative come immediately to mind.) 

As a hypothetical, say a man acquires a degree from a Bible school that chose to forego accreditation because it doesn't want the government determining what it teaches.  That man then applies for a job as a pastor, referencing said degree.  Is it not a significant problem that the same government could then say he's not legally able to do so?

(And frankly, how does one even know to go look for a law like that?  I always have concerns with laws that the average, reasonable citizen could plausibly break unknowingly, and wouldn't necessarily think to look for.)

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Fair point.

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haha I did actually quote something you wrote, DavidHume; it just vanished due to technical difficulties. That wasn't snark on my part. I was responding to this:

"But it's really not all that different than a state having specific requirements that need to be met to use various professional designations like CPA or RN. As those vary by state it's not unreasonable that the standards for claiming BA or PhD would as well."

[sanantone]

That sounds like some serious overstepping on the part of a state legislature, to determine how a company and potential employees are permitted to do business. I just don't see how a law like that could hold up.

Those laws are there to protect businesses and the customers of those businesses. Surgical techs aren't licensed in most states, and if I were a patient, I wouldn't want my surgical tech's only credential to come from a diploma mill. That's asking for an infection.

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if you're claiming to have a degree but the degree is not recognized as a legal degree, that's fraud. fraud definitely seems within the scope of the legislature.

To a point, I degree, but there should be some exceptions. Places like Smart.ly (unaccredited MBA with strict entrance requirements), Wozniak's unaccredited school, and EdX's Micromasters programs, as an example, should not be illegal to cite as education on your resume.

Stopping me from founding my own "Thorne Technical University" and issuing myself three PhD's in highly competitive fields is not something I find to be an overreach, logically, but claiming that legitimate education is illegitimate because the US Government doesn't permit it to issue a degree would be.

Those aren't real degrees and shouldn't be listed in the education section as degrees. They're more continuing education.

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if you're claiming to have a degree but the degree is not recognized as a legal degree, that's fraud. fraud definitely seems within the scope of the legislature.

Sure.  But an unaccredited degree and an illegitimate degree are, arguably, two different things.  The "degrees" mentioned in the OP aren't even really degrees.  There's no course work or demonstration of competency required.  But there are a number of schools that are perfectly legitimate that either are still in the process of accreditation, or choose to refrain from accreditation because what they teach is counter-cultural and they don't want the governmental strings attached that come with accreditation.  (Religion and alternative come immediately to mind.) 

As a hypothetical, say a man acquires a degree from a Bible school that chose to forego accreditation because it doesn't want the government determining what it teaches.  That man then applies for a job as a pastor, referencing said degree.  Is it not a significant problem that the same government could then say he's not legally able to do so?

(And frankly, how does one even know to go look for a law like that?  I always have concerns with laws that the average, reasonable citizen could plausibly break unknowingly, and wouldn't necessarily think to look for.)

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Fair point.

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haha I did actually quote something you wrote, DavidHume; it just vanished due to technical difficulties. That wasn't snark on my part. I was responding to this:

"But it's really not all that different than a state having specific requirements that need to be met to use various professional designations like CPA or RN. As those vary by state it's not unreasonable that the standards for claiming BA or PhD would as well."

As mentioned earlier, there are exemptions for schools that are primarily religious in nature. No one is going to hire you as an accountant based off an MDiv anyway.

[a2jc4life]

Maybe I would just need to see the text of these laws we're talking about, but I see a fundamental difference between saying one can't apply for specific types of jobs (like a surgical tech) with an unaccredited degree and saying that one can't apply for a job with an unaccredited degree. Society understands the difference between an area where consumers need particular protection and those where we don't. That's why we require that doctors or nurses be licensed, but don't require licensure for, say, hardware store owners.

[sanantone]

This is what Texas considers to be a fraudulent or substandard degree.

http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/index.cfm?o...B0B40E8FA9

This is Texas' law against using fraudulent or substandard degrees to promote a business or obtain employment.

http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/?objectid=E...60B3946FBB

[Berzerker]

This site was "discussed" on another forum a while ago and it was discovered that they also run a fake references service (or are "partnered" with them at least): career excuse dot com look under the "services" section.