I am annoyed! - rant

[SimonTam]

I guess I should have put Spazz on my ignore list, but I didn't, so I'm responding.

The process of creating CLEP exams is complex and rigorous. The examinations are designed to reflect current college curriculum and ensure that students taking CLEP exams have mastered the knowledge required of an equivalent course. College faculty are an integral part of CLEP and the advent of CBT has enabled the Program to strengthen its faculty connection through standing test development committees and online meetings of standard setting panels made up of faculty members.

CLEP exams are conceptualized and created by college and university faculty who teach the relevant undergraduate course. Each exam has a standing Test Development Committee of three or four members who contribute test questions and content input each year making test development an on-going process that is responsive to changes in college curriculum. In addition, test development specialists at the Educational Testing Service work with the committee members to review questions and assemble the exams.

Faculty members who serve on the committees serve for three-year terms with annual reappointment. They are selected based on their professional qualifications as well as the type of institution they represent, their gender and background. CLEP strives to have a broad representation on its committees.

In addition to Test Development Committees, there are also Standard-Setting Panels of 15 to 20 faculty who convene online. Their task is to define the typical A, B, C & D student then evaluate each exam question provided by the Test Development Committee, and assess whether a typical student at the B or C level would be able to answer the question correctly. All Panel members' assessments are averaged for each question.

The first step in the construction of a CLEP examination is a curriculum survey. Its main purpose is to obtain information needed to develop test content specifications that reflect the current college curricula and recognize anticipated changes in the field. The curriculum survey is conducted every three to five years, depending on the discipline. College faculty across the country complete the survey which gathers information on:

* The major content and skill areas covered in the course, and the proportion of the course devoted to each area.
* Specific topics taught and the emphasis given to each topic.
* Specific skills students are expected to acquire and the relative emphasis given to them.
* Anticipated changes in course content, skills, and topics.
* The primary textbooks and supplementary learning resources used.
* Titles and length of college courses that correspond to the CLEP examination.

Exam content specifications are determined by the Test Development Committee and are primarily based on the curriculum survey, the expertise of the committee and test development specialists as well as textbook reviews and other appropriate sources of information. Content specifications include:

* The test's purpose.
* The intended test population.
* The titles and descriptions of courses the test is to reflect.
* The specific subject matter and the abilities to be tested.
* The length of the test, types of questions, and instructions to be used.
* The steps planned to ensure cultural sensitivity and avoidance of group stereotypes and recognition of contributions of women, minorities, and other groups.

A CLEP exam is developed from a pool of questions written by committee members and outside question writers. These questions are compiled by test development specialists at the Educational Testing Service according to the test specifications, reviewed and edited and returned to the committee members for a final consideration. Committee members later meet to review test specifications and the pool of questions for the exam.

Once questions are developed, edited, reviewed, pre-tested and selected, tests are assembled into small, content-specific units, which can then be combined in different ways to create multiple test forms. This method (testlets) allows a maximum number of different forms to be assembled from a pool of questions.

All CLEP exams are reported on a scale of 20 to 80. CLEP has adopted a policy of reporting performance indicative of the two-semester C student as a scaled score of 50. As standard settings are conducted and test development committees make credit-granting score determinations, the required two-semester C performance may change but the adjusted raw score will always be equated to a scaled score of 50 (with the exception of four-semester recommended-credit granting scores in foreign languages which may shift as a result of the work of the standard-setting panels.)

Yes, CLEPS are designed for introductory classes. I never said they were not. However, they aren't just slapped together by someone who has never taught a class. They are developed by actual professors who teach the course for which the CLEP is designed.

So, I made no assumption. The CLEPS are designed so that an average student at a typical institution who just took the course should get approximately a 50 on the test. I never said that her sister should forego all of her traditional classes. If you took it that way, you're mistaken.

I'm not saying that a degree completed by 'testing out' is comparable to UPENN, but it is a valid education. As Snazzle said in his post, there are plenty of people that have attended B&M classes that don't retain the knowledge. As there are plenty of people who take CLEPS that don't retain knowledge. It's all up to the learner.

I have a neighbor that at age 27 is about to get his PHD in Statistics. He got there by challenging over 30% of his classes. That's with taking no classes for two years while serving a mission for his church.

I agree with dhlvrsn. How do you think his neighbor challenged his classes? He most likely petitioned to the department head, the professor created a test, he took it and passed. Since he passed, his professor and the department head submitted him for applicable credit for the course. In other words, he tested out of his traditional class.

Now, you are on my ignore list.

[spazz]

I do not care if they say they use professors from MIT to make the clep tests. What is certain is that the tests cover the superficial topics of the course. Another proven point is that if you clep the course, assuming you actually LEARN all the material covered and not just memorize what you need to, because there is an obvious difference between remembering the superficial topics and being able to apply them in traditional schooling labs/work force. YOU are still losing the aspects which are taught from the professors experience and research expertise. So you are losing a lot and YES if I was as old as some of you I would be following right in your footsteps (Meaning I would have other obligations, family etc that I needed to work etc.). But since I am not, and most people in college (4 year) are around 18-22. I think anyone that CAN, should go to a traditional school because OBVIOUSLY a traditional degree would be "worth" more then an online degree/testing out. This statement is true generally speaking from employers point of view.

Even if society believed that online/testing out was as good as traditional colleges you would still have the employers who would be biased against traditional schooling. If you have ever applied for a high level job with a lot of competition state-wide you would realize that the guy that usually gets the job is a guy that attended the employers college.

Hope this helps and I am sorry if anything I said offended anyone.

[spazz]

How do you put someone on your ignore list???

Spazz, I don't believe you help anyone. It seems to me that all you want to do is argue and be right. My original post was a rant. I can tell you that I have taken many classes with dumass people that waste my time and have had to write papers just to satisfy what another person (who in, my opinion, is full of themself) believes I should be learning. I truly believe that I will learn as much as my sister and honestly if that gets me my degree faster then that is what I will do.

If you think that you are going to remember in 10 years what some professor is saying right now, you are fooling yourself! If all that matters in your life is where you got your degree, then all I can say is that your age truly shows. Once you grow up - I will listen to you.

PS - Thanks SimonTam, your post was really enlightening.

I am not trying to argue, I am trying to be realistic with you people. If you do not want to hear the truth then that is fine, I will keep my comments to myself. But since it was a rant, I thought I would rant about your original rant . The reason why we all get degrees is mostly for the same reason. To get a good job when we graduate??? Most of you make the quote it is just a piece of paper which enables you to get higher level jobs.

You would be much more successful in a traditional school. For instance, my first year at a traditional school, I was noticed as one of the top students and in my freshmen year I worked on research with a top professor in mathematics and published 2 papers. By the 2nd semester of my freshmen year I was a teaching assistant in mathematics and filled in for the professor on MANY occasions (which was a junior/senior level class). I am now working on research and have obtained a very large grant from NSF for solving a problem in coding theory. Now would a person have ANY of these opportunities by going to one of these online/testing out schools? NOPE!!

I can tell you by my senior year, I will have no problem going to any graduate school I want, fully paid for and with a nice salary. Not only because I have made several contacts with people from top schools, but because these schools are influenced by politics. These schools are run like businesses instead of schools. They do not care about your grades or GRE scores; they are a business in that they are looking for people who can produce research/teach. If you have not made contacts or have produced research, you are put into the pool of students who apply and get accepted based on the school you graduated from, grades and GRE scores.

Beyond these opportunities, there are obviously many other opportunities which you would be missing out. If the professors in your major recognize you as a bright student, they recommend you to companies etc (make contacts etc), and you will end up with a very nice job. One of the key points in going to traditional school is the contacts you make while there. This goes a long way if you're working with world class professors who have contacts throughout the industry. Even in a small state school has much influence (politically) throughout the local industry.

[dhlvrsn]

Spazz if you are going into theoretical math, biology research and many other fields your points are well taken. The opportunities you speak of clearly favor those in B&M schools. There really isn't any other path. Best of luck.

Also as you pointed out schools are in business. They need people like you that want to get published to help bring prestige to the school. The hope is that it will attract people like me who have no interest in tenure, teaching etc. Like I said in my previous post my neighbor is on the tail end of a PHD in statistics. I, on the other hand, need a "superficial" knowledge of statistics. He had to take the exact same course when he started. I will aquire the knowlege and get credit and know the same material as he exactly the same way he did it. Testing out.

You put a very high value on interaction with professors. My personal experience has been quite the opposite. Many are more concerned about their personal passions than teaching. They teach classes that make money for the school. To quote you "if you work with world class professors..." Would it really surprise you to know that not all professors are world class?

There also seems to be a high percentage of students the diligently sit through every class, worship the professor and do every assignment with aplumb...

As has been pointed out many times this forum is a group of people working on completing a college education in a very specific manor. I dare say a small percentage if any are pursuing a career in academia or want to publish papers. I'd also wager that that is not the goal of the vast majority of folks that will eventually graduate from your school.



"The reason why we all get degrees is mostly for the same reason." Not so.

Oh and by the way thanks for taking that cheap shot at my age...

Karma my friend, karma

[yutzyj]

If you have ever applied for a high level job with a lot of competition state-wide you would realize that the guy that usually gets the job is a guy that attended the employers college.

since 1971 excelsior college has graduated 111,352 as of june, 2005. and my odds are improving everyday!

[chosin01]

You are assuming the college board is the standard, which is not true. That is like saying upenn's business center is so much above the standard that they are actually very uneducated. Which obviously is not logical. The CLEP test is very brief and upfront, in other words VERY superficial, which is the way most of these "tests" are going to be, for one reason, they have to base the test around a superficial topic, because they are assuming anyone will be able to study and pass the test.

For this reason alone, you will get a better education in an actual traditional school because you will be learning not only the superficial topics but whatever your professors experienced and whatever their research interests are.

Distance Learning starts at the 6th row in B&M

[ShotoJuku]

[SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkGreen"]As one of the moderators of the IC-Forums I would like to as a remind everyone that conduct and opinions listed here on the forums should always be professional and not overly personal.

Please feel free to state your case, position, or justification to a discussion without being overly aggressive or zealous towards anyone person or group that may in fact injure, insult, or otherwise wound another member. Opinions are always welcome - but not insults.

We're all in this together!![/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Urbannaja]

In my opinion, a class or a clep is just as effective at learning in nearly all subjects as long as the student puts forth the effort to make it so. Someone who truly puts forth the time and effort to study for an exam can definitely learn more about the subject than a student who only puts forth the minimal effort in a B&M class. Also, not all professors teach their class as broadly as clep covers, so those students might miss out on alot of different courses (for example, I took a soviet history class, which didn't cover half of what's in the dsst history of the USSR..mainly because my prof was a little addled). On the flip side, if you have a great prof and you're putting forth the effort, you SHOULD learn more in a B&M class than in self-study...if only because it's being taught by an expert and there's most likely more time involved.

You just get out what you put in- clep or B&M.