Homeschooling

[Leebo]

Evolution is change in gene frequencies over time. This is a necessary requirement of heredity and natural selection.

Heredity is the passing of traits from parents to offspring.
Natural selection is the process by which some living things succeed in creating more offspring than others.

Once you have those two factors in a system, evolution is occurring.

Speciation occurs when the drift between two gene pools becomes great enough that individuals from the two pools can no longer create fertile offspring.

Contrary to your suggestion that this can't be observed, it can, and has been observed.
See this URL for more info: Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution

But the fact that you said "we haven't seen a fish turn into a frog" suggests your misunderstanding of evolution goes well beyond what I can provide in a forum post. There are many testable elements of the natural universe that are tied to evolutionary theory that go beyond what most people think of.

[sanantone]

In response to Leebo, Westerner, and Sanantone, I would just like to ask why you think that a parent teaching their child(ren) their beliefs is wrong or somehow "indoctrinating"? Also, all three of you made unsubstantiated claims about evolution and creationism with Leebo and Sanantone basically saying that evolution is true because it's the status quo and Westerner saying that evolution is simply a lie. If you are going to make a claim you ought to back it up with a hard and empirical evidence that flows logically in an argument.

I don't know what you were reading, but I never said anything of the sort. Evolution is a scientific theory. Creationism is theology; belief in it is based on faith.

[Jack1798]

Evolution is change in gene frequencies over time. This is a necessary requirement of heredity and natural selection.

Heredity is the passing of traits from parents to offspring.
Natural selection is the process by which some living things succeed in creating more offspring than others.

Once you have those two factors in a system, evolution is occurring.

Speciation occurs when the drift between two gene pools becomes great enough that individuals from the two pools can no longer create fertile offspring.

But the fact that you said "we haven't seen a fish turn into a frog" suggests your misunderstanding of evolution goes well beyond what I can provide in a forum post.

Granted, my "fish to frog" statement was a bit simplistic. I am also not knocking natural selection or heredity, I believe both of those things occur. However what I am saying is that that is not evolution. In the article you cited it talked about evolution being the "change in the gene pool of a population over time" this is where the problem arises. An amoeba has no where near the gene pool of a fish. You can't just make more genes- its like energy there's only so much of it in the universe. I'm not saying that it can't change forms I'm just saying it can't get any bigger. Yet that is what is necessary for evolution to occur. Also you have not answered my question about the huge gap in the fossil record. Like I said, as a skeptic, I just don't see the evidence to support this theory. Just my two cents

[Leebo]

The link I provided answers most of your questions, by the way, not just the one about observable evolution.

You are wrong when you say that you can't make more genes. The process the body uses to copy DNA during reproduction is not perfect and can create changes, duplications, eliminations, and various other things that can change traits and "add information." Additionally, the number of genes does not correlate to the size or complexity of the resulting animal in a concrete way.

The fact that we have any fossils at all is amazing, because it's just sheer luck when a dead animal's bones are preserved by geological conditions. It doesn't happen all the time or in all environments. It's a cool bonus that the theory of evolution doesn't even need to rely on, but is awesome to see in museums. Fossils also present a way of falsifying aspects of evolution, and falsifiability is a defining feature of a science. If fossils were to be found in a chronological order that conflicted with our current understanding, things would have be reconsidered and reworked. Scientists actually love this kind of thing, because it means we're learning more stuff about how the universe works.

Really, go read that whole link if you really do want to learn more.

Just as a side note, you are getting pretty adventurous there with claims like "you can't make more genes" without backing it up at all :p

[Westerner]

Right on, bluebooger! Parents are entrusted with children to raise and train. That's not the government's job.

And telling kids they're going to hell? The way you, Leebo, phrase it indicates you don't know the right way we present the Gospel. Everyone is going to hell for their sins against Almighty God if they don't turn from their sin and put their trust in Jesus and accept His free gift of salvation. The focus is on God's love for each and every one of us. This is what we believe and teach our kids. The parents who teach this to their kids are simply concerned for their well-being, but the kids are individuals with the freedom to choose. This is a conscience issue; it's between you and God. There is no gun to anyone's head and no one is forcing anyone to believe anything. And if they don't want to accept it when they're older, that's fine. No one can force them to accept. Plenty of people raised as Christians leave the faith, as kids and adults. They don't want to believe in God anyway - it makes no difference to them where the Bible says they're going when they die.

But, how's raising kids as Christians different from raising kids as Muslims? You'd say Muslims are "indoctrinating" their kids by telling them what they believe about deities and the afterlife, right? Parents make certain choices for their kids, for better or worse. When the kids become adults and enter society, they will have been exposed to more and more, and have the freedom to choose for themselves.

And Leebo, what's your big problem with kids being taught religion, by their parents or anyone? Would you say parents who put their kids in Christian private school or Catholic private school are "indoctrinating" them?

[Leebo]

And telling kids they're going to hell? The way you, Leebo, phrase it indicates you don't know the right way we present the Gospel. Everyone is going to hell for their sins against Almighty God if they don't turn from their sin and put their trust in Jesus and accept His free gift of salvation. The focus is on God's love for each and every one of us. This is what we believe and teach our kids. The parents who teach this to their kids are simply concerned for their well-being, but the kids are individuals with the freedom to choose. This is a conscience issue; it's between you and God. There is no gun to anyone's head and no one is forcing anyone to believe anything. And if they don't want to accept it when they're older, that's fine. No one can force them to accept. Plenty of people raised as Christians leave the faith, as kids and adults. They don't want to believe in God anyway - it makes no difference to them where the Bible says they're going when they die.

I have heard many people say that later in life they began to doubt, but the fear of Hell instilled in them by their family was crippling. They had recurring nightmares about it because of it being instilled in them from such a young age, even after they were old enough to realize that it wasn't something they believed.

That's just cruel.

And I already said there's a difference between exposing kids to religion and indoctrination. Exposing them to your religion and having them participate is not what I'm talking about.

I went to a Catholic school, though it was high school.

[Westerner]

Well maybe they still had that fear of God which could lead to their salvation if they listened to their conscience. We'll have to agree to disagree on religion; obviously there are differing views on that.

We can disagree on how parents raise their kids, but it's important that parents have that freedom, and the option to homeschool.

Going back to comparisons, I wouldn't prefer any kid to be in an environment where the teachers have to deal with a bunch of kids at the same time and can't provide personalized care, however much they would like to. When a child's young, they need that care. School is really like crowd control.

[Leebo]

Well maybe they still had that fear of God which could lead to their salvation if they listened to their conscience.

Even if they've been taught the fear of Allah? Or some other god?

Sorry, joking is the only way I could decide to deal with the idea that traumatizing people is good.

[Westerner]

1. You are assuming these kids are being traumatized. That's your opinion. I've met plenty who are so thankful to have been raised this way.

2. Christian, Muslim, atheist - all can raise their children in different ways, as those children can—and must— ultimately decide for themselves what to believe.

3. This is not a debate about religion or which is best. If you keep making fun of religion I won't continue this conversation.

And, if you didn't know, there are MANY parents who choose to homeschool for non-religious reasons. The Secular Homeschool Community - The Secular Homeschool Community

[Leebo]

I specifically referred to people who I have heard say they had nightmares after leaving their religion (various religions). Those people are undoubtedly traumatized.

I'm aware some people don't traumatize their kids with the fear of God. Good for them. It does seem to be the only thing people try to convince other people with using the threat of eternal punishment though. You don't hear people saying they had nightmares after switching political parties.