Free community college for everyone? We can all be Aric Hall!

[Christopher]

Wow that's crazy. Our CC and the the two other CC's in the District (our Community Colleges are in a county unified college district) only charge $46.00 a credit. I thought that was a lot. When I originally started in 1998 it was $11.00 a credit. Had I known then I would of taken more classes even just to take classes for later degree application. But, $46.00 is still cheap. $140.00 for CC is a lot. I was just looking tonight and Cal State University-Channel Islands charges only like $250.00 a unit for 400 level classes, and you can take up to 24 credits as a non-degree seeking student (ie someone like me just taking a class to take a class or to transfer that class to another college but won't be an enrolled student) Only down side is, you have to get instructors approval as admitted students who are regular degree seeking students locked into the college get first prioerty as it should be.

I agree. Community Colleges offer two year degrees for those wishing to start at the lower level and transfer to save money, only need an AA degree (not everyone needs the BA/MA), or want to go to college but dont need or want to deal with the university system. I believe only under 40 percent of Americans have a college degree of an Associates or better. My mom would tell say that back in the 1960s/70s even into the early 1980s having an AA was like having a BA today and having a BA was like having an MA today because the percentages of people going/graduating college was so small. In her day it was high school than out to find a job the next day. Some people went to community college to get a trade but that was it unless you were big time. Its funny because our CC has online all the past catalogs since it opened it's campus in 1976. If you look at all the pictures of the students from say the 1981 or 1978 catalog...they're mostly older adults or young people in their 20s. They had a picture of an art class and the 15+ students all looked to be in their 60s. I was at the same CC the other day and I swear I felt like the same only one over 20 years old there.

In our CC's 1988 catalog it states you could only get a max of two degrees. You can get an AA and than a AS or an AS than an AA. But you can't get more than two degrees, and you can only get one AA and one AS. In fact they encouraged students to pick their major WISELY. The 2014 catalog states you can get as many degrees as you want, and they encourage you too get two degrees if the subjects cross each other (like Theatre Arts: Acting and Theatre Arts: Stagecrafts)

But, I dont agree with the plan either. It'll make an AA less valuable. It'll be like "oh, an AA, well everyone has those. They're free by the government...you just have a glorified high school diploma with the only difference you choose to continue to get an AA instead of being forced by the state." We work our *** off for our degrees. AA or BA or whatever. I hate to see even an AA lose it's power because we want to turn college into another free handout. Plus, if its free, people wont take it as serious. People are paying money to take classes. Students have loans. They'll be working to pass those classes or else they just lost a good some of money on a wasted class. Free classes will become like "who cares if I come or not, if I pass or fail, it's all free anyhow." Not everyone can handle college even at the junior college level. Two of my friends from H.S. who thought college was just another semester of high school, and partying while playing sports, dropped out by December.

My county CC charges $113 per credit, and $140 per credit for on-line courses. So when I looked at the $175 per credit under enrolled options at TESC, I was pleasantly surprised and it made the decision easier to cease taking CC classes in favor of TESC UL courses.

I'm personally not a big fan of this proposal, it's simply adding the 13th and 14th grade after HS for students. And anytime something becomes free, it's also devalued. Higher education should be affordable to the masses; but education also offers professional and personal enrichment; and there should be a cost associated with gaining that. What I would like to see is at least 30-45 General Education College Credit hours earned in HS through classes during Jr. and Sr. years. Not dissimilar to AP, but minus the exam and limited selection process; students should be graduating HS with an equivalent of CC level general studies anyways; College should be about learning specialized knowledge- I think a lot more people would finish under that scenario. If everybody graduated HS 1/4 complete in pursuit of a BA/BS, it would make it financially reasonable to continue their studies and keep students motivated by knowing their within reach. Our system of 4 years of college post HS to get a degree is an exception rather then the rule when compared to most of the world.

[videogamesrock]

Something needs to be done to improve college affordability and quality, but I don't think free tuition is the right solution. France has great public education, but staggering university dropout rates, partly due to the fact that it's free. Some skin in the game helps prevent 18-19 year old students from not caring at all, which many of them would be tempted to do. In addition, if CC is free, I fear it would essentially become an extension of high school, which is the last thing anyone needs.

Of OECD countries, Canada has the highest percentage of adults over 25 with degrees at something like 52%. ("degree" here is defined as a Bachelor's degree or higher) College isn't free in Canada, but tuition is generally lower than US state schools. I'm not advocating any country's specific system, but I think this at least proves that college does not need to be free to be accessible, which is presumably the point of Pres. Obama's proposal. I'm actually disappointed by this announcement, because I think the country could use an education legacy from the Obama presidency, but this proposal is unlikely to make it through Congress and even if it did, would have doubtful positive social impact, before you even consider the financial implications.

My wife (a Canuck) says that college is pretty expensive in Canada. She also says that salaries tend to be higher in Canada which makes paying for an education easier. Her nursing program in Canada would have cost her easily over $40,000 and it will cost her in the US around $13,000. It really depends, but from visiting Canada, EVERYTHING is more expensive there. An 18 pack of beer will cost you $50.00.

Tuition fees by university | AUCC

[Christopher]

Same at our CC. Although I swear our CC during our assessment had told us we're "under college level" just to get another tuition class out of us. I took the college writing assessment after H.S. They said I was below high school level, and I was required to take "Intro to writing." Even though I was a “A” student in English courses in H.S. I took the silly class during the summer as a fast track 4 week, three hour a day course, and I got an A+. I over maxed out on points. The college composition class I also got an A. Others have noticed this too. Another student I went to H.S. with was around the pre-calculus level in HS. Yet on his math assessment got "Pre-Algebra level" on his assessment which is the lowest math course offered at the college. In our CC if you're assessment says you're "Pre-Algebra" then you can't take any of the above classes into you take the Pre-Algebra course. We all know it’s just their way of getting another 3 unit's of tuition out of us.

Truth is though, a lot of people hate writing. College is about heavy writing. In H.S. it’s a lot of the scantron tests/quizzes, and multi choice quizzes. I work in the schools and it’s still that way. If we had a writing assignment outside of English class it was like a one page simple thing. In college at any level, writing is serious. The online “Intro to Theatre” class I’m in now at the CC to fill in elective/free credits for when I hit over to one of the big 3, we have to write a 15 page mid-term paper about Greek history of theatre. For me that’s going to be fun/enjoyable as I like to write and I like theatre, but I can just see the other students probably already dropping out of the class when they seen “15 page mid-term.” A lot of students hate writing, or weren’t prepared enough in high school to write a college level. And not just writing, but referencing sources, using proper writing skills, and making sense when you write. Writing with crappy grammar “I like theatre because it’s cool…my old man say’s its cool too..,so it must be cool than” isn’t the proper college level of explaining why you like or hate theatre.

I agree it is an extension of HS. Majority of my class mates have a very difficult time writing and comprehending the assignments. These are students who will need to take three 90 level English courses before they can even take Eng 101. However, it appears to me that the sociology courses that are mostly writing intensive do not have a writing requirement.

[SwaggyP]

I personally think CC should have a unique place in society, and their focus should be on what 4 year institutions don't do. CC should focus on educating future paralegals, dental assistants, master auto technicians, administrative assistants etc. The vast majority of the general requirements to graduate with an AA/AS should be the bare minimum standards to graduate HS, IMO. To be honest I'm not even convinced on the merits of an AA/AS degree outside of those types of specialized fields. Yes, we've all seen the numbers on the lifetime earning power between BA vs. AA vs HS Diploma, and AA/AS definitely beats out HS Diploma; but I can't really comprehend what a person with just an AA in History or Sociology (just to name a few) would do long term career wise.

[sanantone]

Community colleges do offer a lot of vo-tech programs, and these are often in the form of AAS programs. AAS programs have less general education requirements than AS and AA programs. I don't see anything wrong with someone earning an AA in History or Sociology with the goal of earning a BA in those subjects. They're just trying to save money; but, frankly, many of those students will not finish their AA and will just move on to a BA program. However, they were still able to earn a lot of credits for less than what a typical 4-year college or university charges.

[Christopher]

Our CC's did away with the traditional Liberal Arts degree. The Liberal Arts like you see at one of the big three. Our CC required 60 units of credit, all the GE's met, and something like 18 credits from various of areas but the list was VERY LIMITED on what classes you can take from those areas and the ones listed to take were in the 250 ranges like "Soc 290: Whatever it was" . It was intended to get an AA in Liberal Arts so you can transfer to a University to take a major and be right at the 300 level, or just stop and pick a major later. Now they did away with that. They have four different "General Studies" plans now. You can get an AA in General Studies in Social and Behavior Sciences or an AA in General Studies in Natural Sciences and two other ones. The class list of options is pretty much every class in that section and you can fill it up with just 100 level classes if you want. Since all four in some way cross each other, one can get three AA: GS degrees. It's kind of weird. I'm not sure I totally like it.

CC's are also great for people that aren't sure what they want or want to test a major first. I rather lose a $1,000 on a semester of classes at a CC and say "Frack, this Art History major sucks, I'm not going anywhere with it. I'm changing majors next semester" than to say "Frack, this Art History major sucks, I just wasted $15,000.00 of tuition at this University for nothing and stuck with this major now since I already blew $15k on it." CC is a great way to test the waters of a major. It's probably why our CC's have really no restriction on major changes. You can change your major six times in a semester if you like and they really dont care. At Cal State University I think its three times if you change it you're place on academic probation.

AA's make great companions to BA's. We look for it at the school district I work in. If we have an admin assistant job opening and we get sixteen people applying with "BA in Business Administration" and one with "BA: Business Administration, AA: Accounting" that the person with with the AA: Account has the best chance of getting hired because he/she has an added trait of taking specific accounting classes on top of his buisness admin courses, especially if it's the payroll department that's hiring.

I personally think CC should have a unique place in society, and their focus should be on what 4 year institutions don't do. CC should focus on educating future paralegals, dental assistants, master auto technicians, administrative assistants etc. The vast majority of the general requirements to graduate with an AA/AS should be the bare minimum standards to graduate HS, IMO. To be honest I'm not even convinced on the merits of an AA/AS degree outside of those types of specialized fields. Yes, we've all seen the numbers on the lifetime earning power between BA vs. AA vs HS Diploma, and AA/AS definitely beats out HS Diploma; but I can't really comprehend what a person with just an AA in History or Sociology (just to name a few) would do long term career wise.

[SwaggyP]

Community colleges do offer a lot of vo-tech programs, and these are often in the form of AAS programs. AAS programs have less general education requirements than AS and AA programs. I don't see anything wrong with someone earning an AA in History or Sociology with the goal of earning a BA in those subjects. They're just trying to save money; but, frankly, many of those students will not finish their AA and will just move on to a BA program. However, they were still able to earn a lot of credits for less than what a typical 4-year college or university charges.

Sure, as a cost effective means in pursuit of a BA/BS, I agree--that is the rational route to go in utilizing CC. My point is a stand alone credential of only having an AA/AS likely won't open any doors for you, and for the doors they do open, you probably didn't need the AA/AS to begin with. The Vo-Tech and AAS programs being the exception. I believe the only way 'the juice is worth the squeeze' with CC degrees in History or Sociology etc. is if the student understands that ultimately they will need to complete the 4 year degree to realize the true potential of their education and attain desired job opportunities in their area of study.

[Christopher]

That’s like the Associate in Fine Arts here at the CC in our District. Not ours, but in our Distinct as the far west college. Only one in the area to offer AFAs. So you can get an Associate in Fine Arts in Art if you want. It's easier GE requirements and more art based. What I mean is, one can get away with maybe Elementary Algebra instead of the Interm Algebra, but AFA students will be require to take maybe a big Art class or a special acting class which requires an portfolio assessment or audition before you can be admitted, and only AFA majors can take it.

But Sanantone is right. Sociology 101 at our CC is only $46.00 a unit for the 3 unit class. The same class at University of La Verne is $580.00 a unit for the 3 unit class. Both use the same textbook lol. Take the GE classes and lower level major CORE classes at your CC if you can than transfer. With tuition being so high today at the upper level, probably the more cost saving method.

Community colleges do offer a lot of vo-tech programs, and these are often in the form of AAS programs. AAS programs have less general education requirements than AS and AA programs. I don't see anything wrong with someone earning an AA in History or Sociology with the goal of earning a BA in those subjects. They're just trying to save money; but, frankly, many of those students will not finish their AA and will just move on to a BA program. However, they were still able to earn a lot of credits for less than what a typical 4-year college or university charges.

[SwaggyP]

AA's make great companions to BA's. We look for it at the school district I work in. If we have an admin assistant job opening and we get sixteen people applying with "BA in Business Administration" and one with "BA: Business Administration, AA: Accounting" that the person with with the AA: Account has the best chance of getting hired because he/she has an added trait of taking specific accounting classes on top of his buisness admin courses, especially if it's the payroll department that's hiring.

This is when transcripts should be reviewed. A BA in Business Administration will have all the same courses completed that a AA Accounting requires. Hence, the person probably completed the AA in Accounting and had it fully transferred to a 4 year college for a BA. But that person isn't any "more" educated or qualified than a person with just a BA in Business Administration

Edit: Out of curiosity I looked up the core requirements my local CC has for an AA in Accounting, seems about the same to what my transcript should resemble after completing my BSBA at TESC:

Financial Accounting
Managerial Accounting
Computerized Accounting Applications
Microcomputer Applications Using Spreadsheets
Intermediate Accounting
Accounting Information Systems
Federal Taxation
Introduction to Business
Principles of Management
Business Law I
Management Information Systems
Macroeconomics
Statistical Methods

[Christopher]

In California you only need an AA to teach Early Childhood Education (Pre-School). If you have an AA in Child Development, you can get the California Child Development permit from the state. Getting a BA in that field won't do much to improve pay because it's pretty low and whether you have a BA or AA you get the same teaching permit. To be a regular Elementary teacher is a whole different thing though and requires a BA with heavy duty credential work done. I almost major Child Development as a returning student. In fact I cancelled out my classes two weeks back as I saw it really wouldn't lead me anywhere. In Nevada to be a substitute teacher you only need an AA degree in anything but can't sub teach with anything lower than an AA/AS. In California it's a BA to sub teach. So some careers you only need an AA and a BA isn't required or isn't worth the added costs. If you want to be an office manager of a school you really only need an AA in something office like. Business Admin, Admin Assistant. The pay is fair, but not great. But a lot of married women work those positions so they have two incomes coming in.

Sure, as a cost effective means in pursuit of a BA/BS, I agree--that is the rational route to go in utilizing CC. My point is a stand alone credential of only having an AA/AS likely won't open any doors for you, and for the doors they do open, you probably didn't need the AA/AS to begin with. The Vo-Tech and AAS programs being the exception. I believe the only way 'the juice is worth the squeeze' with CC degrees in History or Sociology etc. is if the student understands that ultimately they will need to complete the 4 year degree to realize the true potential of their education and attain desired job opportunities in their area of study.