Free College Degree for US

[cookderosa]

I can't help but bring this question to the table: is there any possibility that "free college" would devalue the college degree both to the degree pursuer and/or the employer?

To be clear, we're talking about associate degrees, not bachelors/masters. I think even if all education was 100% free for any degree, there would still only be a % of people who pursue it. As for the associates- I think it becomes highschool 2.0
Whenever the floor is raised, everything else adjusts naturally.
You see this is TONS of fields. Any field with an AAS or AOS degree, if you go back 50 years, was probably an apprenticeship or on the job training career. Having an AAS/AOS is now a minimum in many of those fields for more than entry level (or sometimes for entry level) and not because the skills are now all of a sudden required to work the job, but because it's normed into the field and "everyone" has the training. I think making vocational/career/technical schools into academic degrees has been a setback, but again, another soap box of mine I'll stay off of.

[Johann]

To be clear, we're talking about associate degrees, not bachelors/masters. I think even if all education was 100% free for any degree, there would still only be a % of people who pursue it. As for the associates- I think it becomes highschool 2.0...

Sure. There's been much less of a trend for degree-ifying tech. courses here in Canada. Only in one or two provinces do Public Colleges commonly issue Associate degrees - and the private career colleges can't do that at all, AFAIK. Here in Ontario, it's mostly diplomas for CoCo courses - with a bachelor's degree path afterwards, if the grad wants to pursue it. Some of the private US career schools like Herzing operate here, but they can't confer degrees of any kind.

I believe we may be talking bachelor's degrees from US Community Colleges pretty soon. I believe California has enacted something (saw it in another forum - maybe DI) and others may have cards they're barely showing as yet.

Johann

[mrs.b]

If public (currently, state) colleges were free in the U.S., I'd argue that the standards of entry should not be raised - that might create adverse impact for prospective students coming from lower-performing high schools (yet another debate for another day). I do, however, think that all students should be considered on academic probation for the duration of their free education. Once in school, are they capable of learning and actively trying? That should be the deciding factor. Students from those lower-performing high schools might need remedial courses to catch up, but if they put in the effort and perform well in them - great. If any student from any high school background chooses partying over studying and grades (in whatever classes they enroll) and dip below the probation line, no more free education - go get a job, or go to a private school on your own dime.

Taxpayers funds most education now, anyway, at both public and private colleges and universities. The default rate on student loans is so horrible, we already foot a lot of the outrageous tuition bills, regardless of completion rates. Perhaps if the condition of education was actual academic performance once admitted, not parents' ability to pay or students' ability to complete loan applications, there would be more incentive to put in the time and effort to earn the quality of education that once was represented in a college degree. At least that way, we would only be funding public educations. Mom and Dad could still choose to buy their party kid a degree on their own dime at private schools.

[sanantone]

40%, 50% or even 60% is still crap! But that's another discussion. A discussion I enjoy, but I don't want to get off track lol.

These numbers are commonly seen at 4-year colleges.

[toddsbiyj]

"Any field with an AAS or AOS degree, if you go back 50 years, was probably an apprenticeship or on the job training career. Having an AAS/AOS is now a minimum in many of those fields for more than entry level (or sometimes for entry level) and not because the skills are now all of a sudden required to work the job, but because it's normed into the field and "everyone" has the training. I think making vocational/career/technical schools into academic degrees has been a setback, but again, another soap box of mine I'll stay off of."

I have to agree. For instance 20 years ago, when I first became credentialled as a Paramedic, a simple certificate of completion and passing the Natioanl Registry test was sufficient and EMS degrees weren't really heard of. The way it is now, alot of systems want an AAS at a minimum and if you have a BS/BA then you will rapidly ascend past those of us with 20 years experience and be telling us how to do our jobs.

[Johann]

Any field with an AAS or AOS degree, if you go back 50 years, was probably an apprenticeship or on the job training career.

Thankfully, on this side of the border, it still works this way (mostly).

Here, there's a school-component to most apprenticeships and this part is handled largely by the Community Colleges. Our local CC spent $30-million re-equipping a campus for trade skills-training, apprenticeships, etc. I got some direct benefit from that myself. I took a residential design/construction program - theory in the classroom, then cutting rafters, soldering pipes and wiring sockets etc. on the trades campus. Great instruction, thoroughly professional equipment and workspace.

No associate degree, though. But the cert. looks nice -and that's just fine with me!

Johann

[cookderosa]

Sure. There's been much less of a trend for degree-ifying tech. courses here in Canada. Only in one or two provinces do Public Colleges commonly issue Associate degrees - and the private career colleges can't do that at all, AFAIK. Here in Ontario, it's mostly diplomas for CoCo courses - with a bachelor's degree path afterwards, if the grad wants to pursue it. Some of the private US career schools like Herzing operate here, but they can't confer degrees of any kind.

I believe we may be talking bachelor's degrees from US Community Colleges pretty soon. I believe California has enacted something (saw it in another forum - maybe DI) and others may have cards they're barely showing as yet.

Johann

Without looking it up, I think there are already CCs in FL (?) doing this. I think it's interesting that only 1 or 2 public colleges in Canada issue associate degrees.....I think that is a very interesting variable in this equation. What are your thoughts about how that plays out? I wonder if that raises the bar enough to drive up completion rates? *interesting note- I'm reading Gladwell's new book David and Goliath (highly suggest) and in Chapter 4 he talks about how completely converse situations end up propelling people into successful outcomes. That often making the goal harder raises the overall number of people who are successful. It's a counter-intuitive chapter that has me thinking about your associate degree comment a little differently. Hummm....

[cookderosa]

These numbers are commonly seen at 4-year colleges.

Yes, but why?

[cookderosa]

"Any field with an AAS or AOS degree, if you go back 50 years, was probably an apprenticeship or on the job training career. Having an AAS/AOS is now a minimum in many of those fields for more than entry level (or sometimes for entry level) and not because the skills are now all of a sudden required to work the job, but because it's normed into the field and "everyone" has the training. I think making vocational/career/technical schools into academic degrees has been a setback, but again, another soap box of mine I'll stay off of."

I have to agree. For instance 20 years ago, when I first became credentialled as a Paramedic, a simple certificate of completion and passing the Natioanl Registry test was sufficient and EMS degrees weren't really heard of. The way it is now, alot of systems want an AAS at a minimum and if you have a BS/BA then you will rapidly ascend past those of us with 20 years experience and be telling us how to do our jobs.

People can line up with stories that support this. Ever think a line cook would need a college degree? What about a nurse? Landscaping, plumbing, construction, on and on.

[Johann]

...I think it's interesting that only 1 or 2 public colleges in Canada issue associate degrees.....I think that is a very interesting variable in this equation. What are your thoughts about how that plays out? I wonder if that raises the bar enough to drive up completion rates?

Many colleges - but (I believe I said) only in 1 or 2 Provinces. I think Associate Degrees are as common these days in British Columbia as anywhere in the U.S. But not here. Despite the paucity of Associate Degrees In Ontario, there are a few programs in our CC's structured as four-year degrees. That's relatively new. For a couple of examples, there is a 4-year Game Design degree at Sheridan College and a 4-year Paralegal degree at Humber College.

Still, the bulk of programs at Ontario CCs are two or three year diploma courses, with one or more distinct degree paths (Canadian or US schools) optionally available afterwards. I certainly hear more horror-stories of university grads without jobs than college grads in a similar predicament. I know personally a couple of university grads who couldn't secure decent employment. They ended up taking college programs and getting jobs in the fields studied there. One University arts grad now works with children and an unemployed psych grad successfully re-trained at college for IT work and now makes a good living - and likes it.

There is a degree-ifying trend in some occupations. Nursing used to be a 3-year college diploma course. It's now been moved to the University as a 4-year B.Sc. in Nursing. In general terms, most people who want practical knowledge for the workplace seek it in colleges. In Ontario, degree programs at CCs are still in the minority. Those whose interests and ambitions are more academic and theoretical - go to universities. I feel that as long as the right people go to the schools their ambitions, specific interests and abilities are suited for -- outcomes (including completion rates and subsequent employment numbers) should be as good as they'll get. Nothing's perfect.

Malcolm Gladwell deals well and originally with converse, conflicting situations - viz. "Outliers." I assume he's also made a good deal of money by now, from his interest in them. I respect that - more power to him. I'll not mess with anything he's said.

Johann