Diploma Mills

[posabsolute]

All I am saying is, ethically, there is a fine line to walk between the learning and earning as many credits as fast as possible.

[clep3705]

There are people who have completely legitimate reasons for learning nothing and earning credits as fast as possible. Older people who take advantage of academic forgiveness programs later in life are faced with a choice. They can continue to be burdened with low grades from the distant past or they can get rid of all grades from the distant past. In other words, they have to throw out the good grades from the past with the bad grades from the past. Earning credits as fast and as inexpensively as possible for material you already know shouldn't offend anybody else's ethics.

Now not learning anything and not knowing anything and getting credit is a different issue.

[posabsolute]

Maybe!

So I got caught up a bit in semantics here, I think I debated this enough. I personally loved my experience with the BSBA, it's primarily why I want to do WGU MBA next.

[jsh1138]

Nobody ever said that. You just choose to take it that way.

The guy said that if you're not going to bother to learn as you take courses you might as well just buy your degree. It was meant as criticism, not as a statement on accreditation.

I made it really clear that I wasn't talking about accreditation, that I was speaking of what a diploma actually represents. I have no idea why this thread was necessary but I guess someone was bothered by the implication that them blowing through classes and learning nothing was a dodge somehow, even though it is. 

I taught martial arts for several years and they have a belt system there obviously, and some people are so obsessed with getting a belt that they stop caring about deserving the belt. Yes, you can skim through everything at Study.com or Straighterline or Shmoop and get a BA, just like you can shop around and find the best place to get a black belt in 2 months but the issue is, after you get that piece of paper that you want, what then?

Do you want to have a BA in history and know nothing about history, because you took the tests 10 at a time with all the browser tabs open? Do you think that impresses anyone? do you think it says anything good about you? Would you rather people be impressed by you or by your degree? If you had 10 black belts but couldn't fight a lick, do you think that impresses anyone? Or do you think that they feel like you must have cheated your way to get them or that all black belts are worthless? That's all I was getting at. 

Btw Joe Manchin's daughter got a degree in WV while he was governor despite not having enough credits to graduate. So you *can* get a degree all kinds of way, even an accredited one from a brick and mortar school. There's no reason to argue that, I was just saying why would you want that kind of degree. It doesn't prove anything or confer anything of honor or value on you. 

Now if your answer is "because i make 20% more at my job with a degree than without" or "because I want to impress girls" or whatever, then fair enough. Obviously people are free to do whatever, and I never said otherwise. I was just suggesting that people think through what they're really getting out of these classes instead of just finding the easiest way to blow through them while retaining nothing. Not that I'm some kind of hero but I take the shmoop and straighterline classes with the book closed and if I pass then its because I actually know the material. I'm still doing 10 classes a month like that, which to me is plenty. If I could do 25 a month and not retain anything I wouldn't do it that way but again, people are free to do whatever. I was just suggesting that if you don't care about retention, why not just buy the degree because they one you're going to get is going to be meaningless anyway.

I don't mean that to down anyone, just suggesting that people think about it for a minute and really ask themselves what they're trying to get out of this process. Wouldn't you rather actually learn something, if you stop to think about it?

[mudball]

Interesting point jsh1138. It took me 5 years as an adult to earn my black belt and it took my son 6 years to earn his. I know many kids, some as young as 8 or 9 that got a black belt from other schools in a year. It kind of makes me mad, because it devalues what I earned because so many are given out so easily. I can see how a ton of meaningless BA degrees may devalue them in general, yet employers can look at transcripts to see details of the degree too.

[jsh1138]

Interesting point jsh1138. It took me 5 years as an adult to earn my black belt and it took my son 6 years to earn his. I know many kids, some as young as 8 or 9 that got a black belt from other schools in a year. It kind of makes me mad, because it devalues what I earned because so many are given out so easily. I can see how a ton of meaningless BA degrees may devalue them in general, yet employers can look at transcripts to see details of the degree too.

well exactly, we all know an 8 year old walking around with a black belt is devaluing the belt. We used to say that you'd rather be the best green belt anyone had ever seen vs being the worst black belt that anyone had ever seen. at the end of the day, the belt only means anything because of the people who hold it, not the other way around

its the same thing with degrees. i'd rather be the smartest guy with no degree than the dumbest guy with 10 degrees. you can hand degrees out like candy but at the end of the day it doesn't mean anything or change anything if you don't know the material. the degree is a *symbol* of the learning that you did to get the degree, that's the point of it. if you skip the learning then the symbol is meaningless because people will get in 5 minutes that you have no idea what you're talking about even though you have 5 IT degrees, if you can't fix the router issue or whatever. So then where are you? At the end of the day people are going to see you for what you are, whatever that is or isn't. 

So the idea is a transformational journey, to improve what you are, not just to slap some degrees on the wall and call it a day. I mean whatever people want to do, like I said before, I'm not here to police anyone's learning experience. Just saying you aren't going to be fooling anyone when you get out there in the world so if you want them to be impressed when they see that degree you need to do a little bit of work to go with it

[dfrecore]

Interesting point jsh1138. It took me 5 years as an adult to earn my black belt and it took my son 6 years to earn his. I know many kids, some as young as 8 or 9 that got a black belt from other schools in a year. It kind of makes me mad, because it devalues what I earned because so many are given out so easily. I can see how a ton of meaningless BA degrees may devalue them in general, yet employers can look at transcripts to see details of the degree too.

well exactly, we all know an 8 year old walking around with a black belt is devaluing the belt. We used to say that you'd rather be the best green belt anyone had ever seen vs being the worst black belt that anyone had ever seen. at the end of the day, the belt only means anything because of the people who hold it, not the other way around

its the same thing with degrees. i'd rather be the smartest guy with no degree than the dumbest guy with 10 degrees. you can hand degrees out like candy but at the end of the day it doesn't mean anything or change anything if you don't know the material. the degree is a *symbol* of the learning that you did to get the degree, that's the point of it. if you skip the learning then the symbol is meaningless because people will get in 5 minutes that you have no idea what you're talking about even though you have 5 IT degrees, if you can't fix the router issue or whatever. So then where are you? At the end of the day people are going to see you for what you are, whatever that is or isn't. 

So the idea is a transformational journey, to improve what you are, not just to slap some degrees on the wall and call it a day. I mean whatever people want to do, like I said before, I'm not here to police anyone's learning experience. Just saying you aren't going to be fooling anyone when you get out there in the world so if you want them to be impressed when they see that degree you need to do a little bit of work to go with it

I guess I'm looking at it from another angle.  I know people (myself included) with many years of experience in an industry - 10, 20, 30+ years.  Then all of a sudden, someone decides that you need a degree, and that all those years of experience are basically invalid without a piece of paper showing that you took 120 credits, many of them completely randomly chosen.  Someone at a school created a "degree" that said that you had to take Art History and World Civilizations and Statistics and Speech and World Religion to work as an HR Analyst.  Why?  What makes those particular courses important?  Why do you need those to do well in HR?  What do they have to do with HR anyway?

I think courses in the AOS/Core MAY be important, but they certainly all aren't.  I don't need to know the slightest thing about bonds (Finance) or social media (marketing) or supply-side economics (Microecon) to be good at my HR job!  The courses I DO need to be good at HR aren't even offered in most business degrees (compensation, training, project management), but for some reason, someone said that this was necessary, and now I have to jump through stupid hoops that mean nothing for my 10+ years of HR experience to have meaning.

I just think a lot of it is silly.  And I decided that if I didn't want to learn a bunch about Microeconomics because it's required for my degree, but I will not use a single bit of the information for the rest of my life, then I don't really feel bad for not working hard to get an A on that course.  Sure, I learned some (and already knew a bunch), but it really isn't necessary for what I want to do with my life.  Same with Stats, and Finance, and Managerial Accounting.  They mean virtually nothing to me in my line of work.  They are just classes picked by someone who thinks I should know them.

And just because I got a B in Microecon does not mean that I don't know anything, or that my degree is worthless.  It just means that I didn't work my hardest to learn information that isn't relevant to me.

Obviously, I am not talking about someone who has zero work experience AND got a degree in 6 months without learning anything.  That kind of person will have a hard time in the real world finding a job, because they have nothing to offer.  But for many of us here, that's not the position we are in.  We have the experience, and now we need a piece of paper to "prove" that all that experience is worth something.  A silly notion, but there it is.

[mudball]

"I just think a lot of it is silly. And I decided that if I didn't want to learn a bunch about Microeconomics because it's required for my degree, but I will not use a single bit of the information for the rest of my life, then I don't really feel bad for not working hard to get an A on that course. Sure, I learned some (and already knew a bunch), but it really isn't necessary for what I want to do with my life. Same with Stats, and Finance, and Managerial Accounting. They mean virtually nothing to me in my line of work. They are just classes picked by someone who thinks I should know them."

I agree. I think a lot of the classes required are silly. I certainly encourage my son to learn something, but not waste time on those classes. I want him to spend time on his AOS classes. It's also silly for anyone who has been in a job for a substantial time (and is good at it), to have to get that piece of paper.

[jsh1138]

"I guess I'm looking at it from another angle.  I know people (myself included) with many years of experience in an industry - 10, 20, 30+ years.  Then all of a sudden, someone decides that you need a degree, and that all those years of experience are basically invalid without a piece of paper showing that you took 120 credits"

sure, i've been in sales management for 20 years and dont have a business degree. I hear you. but in that case you know the material and the degree again symbolizes what you know. you dont need to take a test with the tabs open, etc, right?

the learning has to come first, then the degree, that's all i'm saying. I agree that taking a required walking class or whatever is dumb, that's why i'm doing it this way. I had plenty of credits from brick and mortar colleges but this way i get to have more control over my degree. So that's good. That's the benefit of this system, that you can learn what you want to learn and get a degree anyway. the benefit shouldn't be that you can get a degree without learning anything, imo

[High_Order1]

You have two people standing there, degree in hand, wanting to be hired.

One person took their journey in earnest, learning a great deal, investing time and money.
The other busted through 90 credits in a month, and can't tell you what the cover of any of the books look like.

I think that's the true issue here, and if we don't self-regulate to an extent, the group B people will wind up ruining compressed schedule distance ed.

Ethically - If they say, in order to merit an A, you must do 1,2,3. You can do open book, and if you ace out 1 and 2, you can fail three and still pass.

As long as you put the quarter in, the coffee should come out.

If that's accomplished by your mastery of the topic, so much the better, but they didn't ask to see your mastery; they told you to pass 67 chapters. If they wanted you to demonstrate mastery, they'd do a comprehensive final, and you'd have to pass it proctored.

I couldn't game the system for speeches - I had to actually do them.

The truth is, there are ways to game *any* system. People have cheated on brick and mortar testing since it was invented. Stupid people have been churned out of prestigious schools since the beginning of time.

But since people already have a negative preconception of online education, they grade 'online gaming' harder.

And, so, here we are.

A person says that if you're gonna buzz through the courses without retaining anything, why not just buy a sheepskin and be done with it? The harsh answer is, because no one would accept it. I won't lie - when I began researching this path, if I could have bought a degree that was acceptable, I would have done it. I didn't care about the love of learning, I wanted a diploma that checked a box.

I wound up earning my diploma. I did learn stuff I didn't know. Like the definition of gambling, I was never assured of a passing grade in any of the courses I paid for, everything I did was based off of my efforts, and there was plenty of oversight to make sure I didn't get some other dude to do my work for me. But I also intentionally slowed down often, and trying to gain something from each course. I didn't want someone later to try and test me on something a bachelor should know, and me go... uhh, dunno.

I still don't get math, but that's another topic. I feel rambly, so I'll cut it off here. People that struggled for six years to get a bachelors are going to look at people that got them in two very harshly. Getting it online, even more harshly. It is what it is.

But there are people who will never learn as well in a structured, dribbled-out environment as they can when they can go at their own pace. Not giving them a path because of 'feels' does them a disservice.