Are traditional classrooms as shallow as online classrooms

[UptonSinclair]

I have spent most of short college career in online classes rather than classrooms so I have a question for those of you who have spent more time in traditional settings. Do the discussions in undergraduate courses lack depth? With most of the online courses I have taken, the discussion boards lack substance. Most students simply meet the assignment requirements and have no interest in exploring the topics addressed. In many instances, I blame the lack of participation on instructors who take the guide on the side approach to the extreme, but often it seems like students are simply punching a card for credit. Next year I will transition from undergraduate to graduate courses so I hope the approach is different.

[soliloquy]

I found that professors who use the Socrates method - trial by fire - inspired more discussion. I had one professor last semester assign us discussions that we had to have over Skype and I found it to be very helpful in retaining information that we learned. He also insisted that we have these discussions with new people every week. we were not allowed to engage and these discussions with the same person more than twice in a semester. further at the end of our discussion, we were required to fill out a questionnaire which we had to turn in for credit. we were also instructed as a part of the assignment to evaluate the participation and preparedness of our partner. This was an addition to our regular discussion board exchanges.

[sanantone]

I have spent most of short college career in online classes rather than classrooms so I have a question for those of you who have spent more time in traditional settings. Do the discussions in undergraduate courses lack depth? With most of the online courses I have taken, the discussion boards lack substance. Most students simply meet the assignment requirements and have no interest in exploring the topics addressed. In many instances, I blame the lack of participation on instructors who take the guide on the side approach to the extreme, but often it seems like students are simply punching a card for credit. Next year I will transition from undergraduate to graduate courses so I hope the approach is different.

I can compare my online master's courses with my on ground PhD courses. For my master's program, we had to write a few paragraphs for our initial responses. For the responses to the other students, most got pretty engaged. The students had a genuine interest in international politics. For my PhD courses, students would skip the readings if they could; therefore, they wouldn't have much to contribute. Some professors have remedied this issue by asking each student questions during class. Another professor has us summarize articles and email discussion questions to everyone before class. This forces us to read the materials. However, this doesn't really work well with large classes. The larger the class size, the easier it is to get away with saying little the whole term. You can't do this with required discussion board assignments.

I noticed some of the PhD students think coursework that doesn't improve research skills is pointless. They like the model seen in other countries where there are dissertation-only doctorates. I do agree with them that being required to publish an article before graduating is a better idea than having comp exams. Comp exams don't do much to prepare students to become professors or researchers. Even non-research schools these days are asking applicants for professor positions to show proof of being able to publish. I'm going to stop this tangent because I'm just rambling now.

I'll compare the two for-profit colleges and the community college system I attended for undergraduate coursework. At Colorado Technical University, we were just going through the motions because we had a lot of busy work to complete in a 5.5-week period. At Western International University, we also went through the motions because, honestly, the business topics just weren't interesting. In my criminal justice courses at a CC, there were some heated discussions.

[UptonSinclair]

The Skype approach sounds like a nice change of pace. Up to this point, I have never met another student face to face. I imagine scheduling can be a real nightmare.

I wonder if the layout of discussion boards adds to the problem of engagement. In a class I am currently taking, the topic is given and each student begins their own thread for the topic. We are then required to comment on one or two of the other student posts. I assume this layout allows Blackboard to display nice statistics for each student regarding participation and simplifies grading, but I believe it disrupts communication. I would much rather see a single thread for each topic with students commenting on the topic and disputing or expanding on the input of other students.

[Yanji]

I designed a couple of courses for the Kelley School at IU, which is a top 10 undergraduate business program, but whenever I'd visit a class, I'd often be shocked at the level of discussion and student engagement. You have a few students who just open their mouths for the sake of it, and a lot of them who couldn't care less. Obviously, this exists in graduate/professional programs as well, but at the undergraduate level I think it's just a maturity thing. As for online courses, I think lack of depth on discussion boards is often largely the fault of the instructors. How engaging could it be for everyone in the class to post responses to the same questions on a discussion board? Some instructors are under the dangerous illusion that online delivery itself is some sort of educational innovation. An online course that consists of readings and a token discussion board is just a correspondence course with less paper. (not that there's anything wrong with that, but correspondence courses don't exactly foster meaningful discussions)

I personally think synchronous with a videoconference component is the way to go, but some would disagree with me.

[UptonSinclair]

I can compare my online master's courses with my on ground PhD courses. For my master's program, we had to write a few paragraphs for our initial responses. For the responses to the other students, most got pretty engaged. The students had a genuine interest in international politics. For my PhD courses, students would skip the readings if they could; therefore, they wouldn't have much to contribute. Some professors have remedied this issue by asking each student questions during class. Another professor has us summarize articles and email discussion questions to everyone before class. This forces us to read the materials. However, this doesn't really work well with large classes. The larger the class size, the easier it is to get away with saying little the whole term. You can't do this with required discussion board assignments.

I noticed some of the PhD students think coursework that doesn't improve research skills is pointless. They like the model seen in other countries where there are dissertation-only doctorates. I do agree with them that being required to publish an article before graduating is a better idea than having comp exams. Comp exams don't do much to prepare students to become professors or researchers. Even non-research schools these days are asking applicants for professor positions to show proof of being able to publish. I'm going to stop this tangent because I'm just rambling now.

I'll compare the two for-profit colleges and the community college system I attended for undergraduate coursework. At Colorado Technical University, we were just going through the motions because we had a lot of busy work to complete in a 5.5-week period. At Western International University, we also went through the motions because, honestly, the business topics just weren't interesting. In my criminal justice courses at a CC, there were some heated discussions.

So, from what you are saying it appears that the format is not necessarily the issue. I can't imagine the difficulty for an instructor trying to encourage student engagement. I think sometimes my Utopian ideas of education are a bit lofty.

[Prloko]

when I attended in person courses, I found only a few students engaging in meaninful discussion. Many others had the notion of, hey just tell me what I need to pass.

I hate online discussion boards where everyone answered the same question. I had one mentor who asked follow up questions, which created meaningful discussion.

[UptonSinclair]

I personally think synchronous with a videoconference component is the way to go, but some would disagree with me.

In the past I have questioned the need for synchronous communications in online classes because it seemed to ignore the scheduling issues that send most people looking for alternatives, but lately I can see the benefit. Unfortunately, synchronous is not an option for me due to working 12 hr night shifts.

On a side note, I just happen to be one of those students who opens their mouths for the heck of it. It was a real struggle the few times I sat in class not to railroad the rest of the students. It is something I am working on.

[sanantone]

So, from what you are saying it appears that the format is not necessarily the issue. I can't imagine the difficulty for an instructor trying to encourage student engagement. I think sometimes my Utopian ideas of education are a bit lofty.

I think it depends on the type of student, how much stress they're under to take care of other things, and the topic at hand. Campus students often don't engage in the discussions because they don't complete the required readings and know they can get away without saying anything. When you're in class with a lot of people, there is a diffusion of responsibility to say something. This is a psychological concept. Many online discussion board topics just aren't worthy of discussions, so students do the bare minimum to complete the requirements. If you have students who are bogged down with work and family life, they can become overwhelmed with lengthy discussion board assignments.

Synchronous discussions and lectures would not work for most online programs. You have students working 1st, 2nd, and 3rd shifts; 8, 12, and 16-hour shifts; and weekends. If you mostly have students working 9-5 on weekdays, then you might be able to make it work.

[LaterBloomer]

UptonSinclair, I, too, am one of those folks who speaks up in class - and speaks up, and speaks up, and speaks up! In B&M courses, especially into ones, it's easy to coast by without saying anything. With virtual classes, it could be a lot harder to coast if professors would approach it the right way. What's the right way? I don't know, but asking everyone to answer the same question - especially when it's a right or wrong answer sort of question - isn't it. Sanatone, I can see folks discussing/debating things in CJ classes. My question is, how much of the statements made are backed up by evidence, and how much of the debate/discussion is based upon opinion based upon emotion? Not emotion, exactly, but I hope you know where I'm going with this.