Medical School, AMCAS, Prerequisites, Pass or fail, online college, etc...

[CanICode]

I have been digging through many posts on here about med school. There is a lot of misinformation.

TLDR: If you can score a great MCAT score of 517+ and do your prerequisites at a graded college, you can get into med school. You can even get in with pass fail credits at some schools.

I am going to share just a few resources/things I have found that are super helpful:

1. Here is a list of schools and their criteria. You can go through all the med schools and find one that accepts online classes, pass or fail classes, what prereqs they need, if they need labs, and notes on the college's requirements if there are any stipulations. If anyone tells you you cannot go because they only accept graded credits, they are wrong. Colleges prefer them, but it isn't set in stone. Also, colleges caring about graded credits is more about the prerequisites than anything. Some places will accept pass or fail; some colleges will take you with zero prerequisites. There are top 20 colleges that will take you if you have a strong application and a great story. It is possible. Anyone who says it isn't is just flat-out wrong. The deciding factors for places that don't require these are usually diversity, story, or the field that you are switching from is highly regarded. I saw a post from a girl who helped develop drugs and had a mediocre MCAT score, but she got into med school because the school was playing the long game, thinking that if she worked out, she would end up helping their research that could lead to some profitable drugs. Nothing is set in stone.
2. You need clinical hours. If you have none, a great score, and all the prereqs, it won't matter if you don't have clinical hours that face patients. I have read dozens, if not hundreds, of posts from people who had 520+ scores + 4.0 and didn't get in because that is all they had on their app. Don't think you are hot shit and can get into med school without clinical hours. I have read maybe 10+ posts about 528 MCAT perfect score 4.0 applicants not getting admitted. They always applied to T10 schools, and none of them gave a shit. Harvard's average MCAT score is 519. You aren't much better than a 520 score just because you lucked out on the question draw. You are virtually identical to admissions. In fact, anyone above the school average is seen as raising the average overall, so it isn't that impressive.
3. Hur dur "yOu neEd preReQuiSites to be GPA graDed credits." No. Wrong. Plenty of schools will make exceptions, and if you have 2000 clinical hours, all your shadowing hours, a killer MCAT score, and volunteer enough, you can get in. Would it be WAY better to have graded credits? Yes. It will unlock a heck of a lock more options for school. Just look at the list in point 1. It's from the people who run the AMCAS.
4. Do you need your prerequisites done before you apply? No. You need them before matriculation. So, don't do all of them before applying. Do some of them to make your application stronger and make it seem possible to finish the needed classes before matriculation.
5. Some schools will accept pass or fail. Ever since COVID, the guidelines have changed a lot. Some schools are just more accepting. Know this, though: For every corner you cut, your MCAT score needs to be higher. Here is a list of the school's average admittance scores.
6. Schools care more about MCAT now than ever before. Since there has been GPA inflation due to COVID and online classes, all schools care more about the MCAT than before. Also, everyone's MCAT scores keep going up. It's an arms race.
7. Texas has a thing for state residents called Academic Fresh Start AFS. If you have classes older than ten years that are hurting you, then you can choose to remove everything ten years or older if you apply under AFS. You have to be a resident, though.
8. Research is nice, but no one is published. Sure, a PhD student is. But almost no one comes in published. It is nice if you have some sort of research, but I have seen plenty of people without it get in.

Here is the formula for admittance to medical school:

1. Great MCAT score.
2. High GPA.
3. Clinical patient-facing hours. 300-1000+ Anything after 1000 doesn't make you much better. 2000 basically = 1000.
4. Shadowing hours. 100+ multiple specialties.
5. Letters of recommendation.
6. Prerequisites. It is better if they are graded for more school options and a better chance of T20+. They need to be finished before matriculation.
7. Volunteer hours.
8. No one has publications. You can try to help a team, research to strengthen your app, but almost no one besides PhDs has pubs.
9. Almost everyone accepts online classes related to COVID-19, and many decided to leave it that way. And if they bring back the mask mandate again, there is going to be 90% of schools allowing it again. TIS fine IMO.

Final note, this takes forever. If you have studied, got a great MCAT, and have all your prerequisite hours, etc. You still ain't getting into med school for two years. The current cycle has passed you by; the next one starts in Jan., And you will be admitted the following year in the fall. So that's 2025 fall at the soonest. That's two years from now just to be admitted. Ideally, you would start this process with MCAT scores and apply at the end of your junior year in a four-year college. If you miss the deadline to apply for next year, you are looking at three more years before you are in med school. It is not for the faint of heart.

Anyways, there was a lot of fragmented sorta true sorta not true information on here, and I spent about 100 hours looking into this, so I am debating the time commitment at the moment, and I wanted to share my findings. All of this is subject to change. Do your own research, and don't rely on people on the internet too heavily.

[LevelUP]

A high college GPA is quite achievable at the colleges we recommend. You should be able to attain a 3.7 GPA or higher.

One question is which major to choose and which school to attend that is both efficient and affordable, while also meeting the prerequisites you need. Perhaps a combination of UMPI and SNHU?

Here's a chart someone posted regarding acceptance rates based on GPA and MCAT scores. Keep in mind that even individuals in the 70% range may not be admitted to medical school

[bjcheung77]

Good tips, I would recommend about the same in regards to the overall requirements... shoot for most of those and hope for the best...
Example is to get a high GPA such as 3.79, MCAT of 510+, and good mix of extras mentioned from 1-9...

[CanICode]

A high college GPA is quite achievable at the colleges we recommend. You should be able to attain a 3.7 GPA or higher.

One question is which major to choose and which school to attend that is both efficient and affordable, while also meeting the prerequisites you need. Perhaps a combination of UMPI and SNHU?

Here's a chart someone posted regarding acceptance rates based on GPA and MCAT scores. Keep in mind that even individuals in the 70% range may not be admitted to medical school

This graph is where I decided 517 was the "fix most problems" score. When I found this graph, what blew me away was the fact that a person with a sub-3 GPA still had almost a 50% chance of getting in. If you apply to low-tier colleges, you will most likely have a shot. If the rest of your app is high quality, you will get in at many places, especially if your recent GPA is high.

I'm still debating it, but I am old. A lot of people here are, too. The earliest anyone at my starting point could be done is 9-10 years. I'm two years away from starting med school and then seven at a minimum before I would be finished if I land in one of the shorter residencies.

[sarahmac]

A high college GPA is quite achievable at the colleges we recommend. You should be able to attain a 3.7 GPA or higher.

One question is which major to choose and which school to attend that is both efficient and affordable, while also meeting the prerequisites you need. Perhaps a combination of UMPI and SNHU?

Here's a chart someone posted regarding acceptance rates based on GPA and MCAT scores. Keep in mind that even individuals in the 70% range may not be admitted to medical school

This graph is where I decided 517 was the "fix most problems" score. When I found this graph, what blew me away was the fact that a person with a sub-3 GPA still had almost a 50% chance of getting in. If you apply to low-tier colleges, you will most likely have a shot. If the rest of your app is high quality, you will get in at many places, especially if your recent GPA is high.

I'm still debating it, but I am old. A lot of people here are, too. The earliest anyone at my starting point could be done is 9-10 years. I'm two years away from starting med school and then seven at a minimum before I would be finished if I land in one of the shorter residencies.

Keep in mind that the GPA's we see on the forum here are somewhat *different* to the mix you tend to see at an in person college, e.g. UMPI you cannot pass the competency without ending up with an "ok" GPA.

The people planning on going into medicine who are doing their bachelors at a traditional 4 year college are often doing things like biomed engineering, pre-med, chemistry etc., degrees where professors often take delight in having "hard to pass" exams. A >3 GPA in some majors at a rigorous university can, though not always, actually be somewhat hard to do.

I've worked with professors who take great delight in the fact their O Chem 1 and 2 have low pass rates. Given they are lab courses, a C in both can be a serious grade hit but is actually pretty normal.

[Duneranger]

1. Yeah of course if you kill the MCAT you might make up for GPA deficiencies
2. 1 and 2 are related, high chance if you killed the MCAT you killed it on GPA too. The number of people getting 517+ but sitting in the 2s GPA wise isn't high. GPAs seen on this forum are also extremely overinflated when compared to most BM schools with rigorous STEM majors
3. Clinical hour quality is varies. Does 3000 hours as a CNA or EMT-B help? Maybe? But how much a school values this varies heavily. Schools know what is and isn't good patient care experience. Former RN or paramedic? Okay that might matter more
4. Yes, shadowing helps form a PS and get LORs
5. Of course.
6. Volunteering helps but ADCOMs can see if you are just checking a box
7. This actually matters A LOT. ADCOMS are not stupid, they look to see where you took your science-based classes. CBE schools with science classes, online labs and ACE credit for core pre reqs aren't going to fly. They want to see them from at LEAST an in-person CC.
8. You can definitely be a co-author on a published publication
9. Once again, COVID was a fluke. You are competing against thousands of student who took their science classes from BM school that were high weed out classes. Online, unproctored "science" classes with "labs" are not going to be accepted most of the time and aren't competitive. There is no "hacking" this process.

Med schools have sub 5% acceptance rates with some of the best and the brightest applying who almost all went to traditional 4 year school with STEM degrees. The vast majority took their core science courses in person with high-stress cut courses/exams/practicals. Not a CBE/Sophia check the gen ed sort of box.

Some of the things you said were true but the methodology/conclusion is flawed

[CanICode]

1. Yeah of course if you kill the MCAT you might make up for GPA deficiencies
2. 1 and 2 are related, high chance if you killed the MCAT you killed it on GPA too. The number of people getting 517+ but sitting in the 2s GPA wise isn't high. GPAs seen on this forum are also extremely overinflated when compared to most BM schools with rigorous STEM majors
3. Clinical hour quality is varies. Does 3000 hours as a CNA or EMT-B help? Maybe? But how much a school values this varies heavily. Schools know what is and isn't good patient care experience. Former RN or paramedic? Okay that might matter more
4. Yes, shadowing helps form a PS and get LORs
5. Of course.
6. Volunteering helps but ADCOMs can see if you are just checking a box
7. This actually matters A LOT. ADCOMS are not stupid, they look to see where you took your science-based classes. CBE schools with science classes, online labs and ACE credit for core pre reqs aren't going to fly. They want to see them from at LEAST an in-person CC.
8. You can definitely be a co-author on a published publication
9. Once again, COVID was a fluke. You are competing against thousands of student who took their science classes from BM school that were high weed out classes. Online, unproctored "science" classes with "labs" are not going to be accepted most of the time and aren't competitive. There is no "hacking" this process.

Med schools have sub 5% acceptance rates with some of the best and the brightest applying who almost all went to traditional 4 year school with STEM degrees. The vast majority took their core science courses in person with high-stress cut courses/exams/practicals. Not a CBE/Sophia check the gen ed sort of box.

Some of the things you said were true but the methodology/conclusion is flawed

Thanks for the feedback. It'd be nice if it were more useful, but I will stick with the ADCOMS I have spoken with and the data I linked in my post. Your post and post like it are exactly why I made this post. There is a lot of nonsense from people who haven't gone down the path for more than 1 hour of research, parroting the same posts that are from 5 years ago as if everything has stayed the same. Thinking you need prerequisites from an "in-person CC" shows me you know absolutely nothing and didn't take the time to read through any of the provided links. There are probably one hundred med schools that take online prerequisites now. Many literally do not care and use the MCAT to weed out now. The entire process has changed due to GPA inflation. So many "in-person" colleges barely require attendance now, and all the modules are done online. ADCOMS are focusing more on MCAT than anything nowadays because they know this is all BS. They know you go "in-person" to community college but actually do the classes online. This is why you see admission MCAT scores climbing. They used to give people the benefit of the doubt. They now know that a better score means that people actually learned the material.

Also, your responses are out of order.

Sorry to be so harsh or caddy, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are entirely misinformed, and your response completely ignores the data from AAMC. People in the military CLEP their way through prerequisites at some colleges. Whatever nonsense you have heard about the top 20 schools doesn't apply to the entire 150-school list. And if there is just one singular exception to the rule, you could simply apply at that school. But there isn't just one, there are 100 and a doctor who graduated from Harvard has the same rights to practice as a guy who graduates from the 150th school on the list.

[Duneranger]

1. Yeah of course if you kill the MCAT you might make up for GPA deficiencies
2. 1 and 2 are related, high chance if you killed the MCAT you killed it on GPA too. The number of people getting 517+ but sitting in the 2s GPA wise isn't high. GPAs seen on this forum are also extremely overinflated when compared to most BM schools with rigorous STEM majors
3. Clinical hour quality is varies. Does 3000 hours as a CNA or EMT-B help? Maybe? But how much a school values this varies heavily. Schools know what is and isn't good patient care experience. Former RN or paramedic? Okay that might matter more
4. Yes, shadowing helps form a PS and get LORs
5. Of course.
6. Volunteering helps but ADCOMs can see if you are just checking a box
7. This actually matters A LOT. ADCOMS are not stupid, they look to see where you took your science-based classes. CBE schools with science classes, online labs and ACE credit for core pre reqs aren't going to fly. They want to see them from at LEAST an in-person CC.
8. You can definitely be a co-author on a published publication
9. Once again, COVID was a fluke. You are competing against thousands of student who took their science classes from BM school that were high weed out classes. Online, unproctored "science" classes with "labs" are not going to be accepted most of the time and aren't competitive. There is no "hacking" this process.

Med schools have sub 5% acceptance rates with some of the best and the brightest applying who almost all went to traditional 4 year school with STEM degrees. The vast majority took their core science courses in person with high-stress cut courses/exams/practicals. Not a CBE/Sophia check the gen ed sort of box.

Some of the things you said were true but the methodology/conclusion is flawed

Thanks for the feedback. It'd be nice if it were more useful, but I will stick with the ADCOMS I have spoken with and the data I linked in my post. Your post and post like it are exactly why I made this post. There is a lot of nonsense from people who haven't gone down the path for more than 1 hour of research, parroting the same posts that are from 5 years ago as if everything has stayed the same. Thinking you need prerequisites from an "in-person CC" shows me you know absolutely nothing and didn't take the time to read through any of the provided links. There are probably one hundred med schools that take online prerequisites now. Many literally do not care and use the MCAT to weed out now. The entire process has changed due to GPA inflation. So many "in-person" colleges barely require attendance now, and all the modules are done online. ADCOMS are focusing more on MCAT than anything nowadays because they know this is all BS. They know you go "in-person" to community college but actually do the classes online. This is why you see admission MCAT scores climbing. They used to give people the benefit of the doubt. They now know that a better score means that people actually learned the material.

Also, your responses are out of order.

Sorry to be so harsh or caddy, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are entirely misinformed, and your response completely ignores the data from AAMC. People in the military CLEP their way through prerequisites at some colleges. Whatever nonsense you have heard about the top 20 schools doesn't apply to the entire 150-school list. And if there is just one singular exception to the rule, you could simply apply at that school. But there isn't just one, there are 100 and a doctor who graduated from Harvard has the same rights to practice as a guy who graduates from the 150th school on the list.

You don't know what you don't know.

I have been in the field for 15+ plus years and have known innumerable ADCOM and committee members during that time. Nothing you have brought up is new or novel. But sure bud, nice assumption that I get all of my info from a forum that discusses little to 0 medicine. Fun fact, I was also an Army officer for 10+ years and spent some of that time advising enlisted soldiers. Many who did go on to complete med school. I know what routes they took and how they made it happen.

CLEPing through core pre reqs is not common and many med schools will simply not accept this. It's a numbers game and your argument simply boils down to if you kill it on the MCAT SOME select schools will forgive you for other transgressions. I don't care if schools take online classes for an application, I want to know to who among these applicants are admitted. I also want to know who among these took in-person upper-level science courses on top of their basic science classes  This is a poor strategy for innumerable reasons. The MRAS list is nothing new to me but congrats for bringing it up?

It's absolutely silly for people to pursue this path while actively making choices that are stacked against them. SO if you don't kill the MCAT then what? It is not an easy test you can fake by reading a Princeton Review study book from Amazon and skipping through your online pre req courses. You are not competing against an admission check list you are competing against thousands of others who killed the MCAT, GPA and took the traditional classes while having the "well rounded" schtick down to a science. You also realize that there are a number of schools that dont even require the MCAT, so then what? Is it a good idea to not take it?

EVERY single med school is competitive, period. Also, not all GPAs are inflated. Not every school and major out there is like degreeforum. Schools can read in between the lines for a 3.4 BM chem engineer and a 3.9 online poly sci major who did a in person post bacc. You are making a STAT 101 error by looking at a couple raw pooled numbers while ignoring the million other internal and external variables that factor into admission.

ADCOMS can see through BS "patient care hours". If you want to sink 2000 others as a CNA getting abused for 12 hours straight (just for it to mean nothing), go right ahead.

You were blatantly wrong about research.

Are you in medicine? Are you in healthcare? OR are you just someone shoulda/coulda/woulda-ing who felt like they discovered the golden El Dorado path to Med school acceptance?

Your response is utterly bizarre for a guy who spend 5 minutes googling basic med school acceptance research and thought it was somehow novel. None of this is new.

[CanICode]

[quote pid='404696' dateline='1696119927']

Med schools have sub 5% acceptance rates with some of the best and the brightest applying who almost all went to traditional 4 year school with STEM degrees. The vast majority took their core science courses in person with high-stress cut courses/exams/practicals. Not a CBE/Sophia check the gen ed sort of box.

Some of the things you said were true but the methodology/conclusion is flawed

As I said in my first response, the future is now old man. Your information is old, just like your experience. You don't know what you don't know. One school that makes exceptions for various criteria is all it takes. Take a look at admissions five years ago and the data on clinical hours required to get in vs. today. Did you know that over 60% of T20 med school matriculants had ZERO paid clinical hours the last cycle? More than 60% haven't even stuck a needle in someone's arm. How many schools do you think ten years ago were letting black kids in because of their story and allowing them to skip prerequisites? Things are different. You can get in on an MCAT score and a great interview alone at some places. You can get in on the color of your skin and an MCAT alone at some places. You can get in having great writing and political experience with a party the school likes at some places. And... you can get in with online prerequisites at plenty of places. Have a story they will front page? In. Have experience with medical patents*, and the school thinks you have a 1/100 shot at getting them the bag? In. Everything is all about the angles now.

Literally, stop being such a noob lol. Do some reading outside of your bubble.

Read the links I gave you. There is nothing admirable about an uninformed person shouting about how right they are when they don't know what they are talking about.

Here, read this: "Undergrad GPA: 3.35 Master's GPA: 3.57 MCAT 1: 504 MCAT 2: 502"

READ the stats on how many people over 520 get in with a sub-3.0 GPA. Actually, read the data. None of what you say has any credibility because "that's how it was back in my day when I started 200 years ago".

You don't have any data to back up your position because the data all supports my position. You are out here claiming they want you to have in-person prerequisites (And some do, but dozens don't) when 50 med schools don't even require labs anymore. LMAO. Just read the AAMC data. I can argue with you all day, but you could just go look up the MSAR data and see for yourself.

No one is claiming you can use Sophia BIO for your prereqs. But you can definitely do them online after COVID.

Edit: Read that link. Seriously. Illuminate yourself. Guess what they did to get in? Applied to an unranked non-top 100 school. Pretty simple. at least 50 plus schools would take someone with a great MCAT and online prereqs. There are probably 100 that would take someone with online prereqs, a great MCAT score, and a good story. People need to apply to the schools that accept their type of situation. And the data is available so you can tailor your applications to those schools. Thank goodness that person didn't listen to some out-of-touch guy online talking about how you are "competing against the best of the best." Guess what? A doctor is still a doctor. The guy from Yale has the same license to practice as someone who graduates from an unranked school.

Edit2: Not to mention, your whole point is moot. You can game the system. You can take online prereqs at extension schools like https://ea.asu.edu/courses/, which is reported just the same on your transcript. Literally, the same course code on the back end that goes to the clearing house. Okay, bud, that's enough data vs. your bad opinions that are outdated. If you have anything legitimate to add, try to use something other than "back in my day 15 years ago." to justify it.

Edit3: Don't misconstrue acceptance criteria with matriculation data. Look at matriculation rates. Look at MSAR data.

Edit4: I don't even know why I got baited into providing so much detail. Prereqs aren't even required to be finished until matriculation. Out of touch.

Edit5: Rank 2 med school accepts online prereqs. But again, a doctor is a doctor and plenty of unranked schools will have less requirements than even this.

Edit6: For future readers looking for information, here is a interesting thread on schools with high percentages of non trad matriculants.

Edit7: Thread on UNE online classes being accepted by schools for prereqs. 

[Duneranger]

[quote pid='404696' dateline='1696119927']

Med schools have sub 5% acceptance rates with some of the best and the brightest applying who almost all went to traditional 4 year school with STEM degrees. The vast majority took their core science courses in person with high-stress cut courses/exams/practicals. Not a CBE/Sophia check the gen ed sort of box.

Some of the things you said were true but the methodology/conclusion is flawed

As I said in my first response, the future is now old man. Your information is old, just like your experience. You don't know what you don't know. One school that makes exceptions for various criteria is all it takes. Take a look at admissions five years ago and the data on clinical hours required to get in vs. today. Did you know that over 60% of T20 med school matriculants had ZERO paid clinical hours the last cycle? More than 60% haven't even stuck a needle in someone's arm. How many schools do you think ten years ago were letting black kids in because of their story and allowing them to skip prerequisites? Things are different. You can get in on an MCAT score and a great interview alone at some places. You can get in on the color of your skin and an MCAT alone at some places. You can get in having great writing and political experience with a party the school likes at some places. And... you can get in with online prerequisites at plenty of places. Have a story they will front page? In. Have experience with medical patents*, and the school thinks you have a 1/100 shot at getting them the bag? In. Everything is all about the angles now.

Literally, stop being such a noob lol. Do some reading outside of your bubble.

Read the links I gave you. There is nothing admirable about an uninformed person shouting about how right they are when they don't know what they are talking about.

Here, read this: "Undergrad GPA: 3.35 Master's GPA: 3.57 MCAT 1: 504 MCAT 2: 502"

READ the stats on how many people over 520 get in with a sub-3.0 GPA. Actually, read the data. None of what you say has any credibility because "that's how it was back in my day when I started 200 years ago".

You don't have any data to back up your position because the data all supports my position. You are out here claiming they want you to have in-person prerequisites (And some do, but dozens don't) when 50 med schools don't even require labs anymore. LMAO. Just read the AAMC data. I can argue with you all day, but you could just go look up the MSAR data and see for yourself.

No one is claiming you can use Sophia BIO for your prereqs. But you can definitely do them online after COVID.

Edit: Read that link. Seriously. Illuminate yourself. Guess what they did to get in? Applied to an unranked non-top 100 school. Pretty simple. at least 50 plus schools would take someone with a great MCAT and online prereqs. There are probably 100 that would take someone with online prereqs, a great MCAT score, and a good story. People need to apply to the schools that accept their type of situation. And the data is available so you can tailor your applications to those schools. Thank goodness that person didn't listen to some out-of-touch guy online talking about how you are "competing against the best of the best." Guess what? A doctor is still a doctor. The guy from Yale has the same license to practice as someone who graduates from an unranked school.

Edit2: Not to mention, your whole point is moot. You can game the system. You can take online prereqs at extension schools like https://ea.asu.edu/courses/, which is reported just the same on your transcript. Literally, the same course code on the back end that goes to the clearing house. Okay, bud, that's enough data vs. your bad opinions that are outdated. If you have anything legitimate to add, try to use something other than "back in my day 15 years ago." to justify it.

Edit3: Don't misconstrue acceptance criteria with matriculation data. Look at matriculation rates. Look at MSAR data.

Edit4: I don't even know why I got baited into providing so much detail. Prereqs aren't even required to be finished until matriculation. Out of touch.

Edit5: Rank 2 med school accepts online prereqs. But again, a doctor is a doctor and plenty of unranked schools will have less requirements than even this.

Edit6: For future readers looking for information, here is a interesting thread on schools with high percentages of non trad matriculants.

Edit7: Thread on UNE online classes being accepted by schools for prereqs. 

[/quote]
Deleted my lengthy post, it’s not worth engaging.

Have a good one, I won’t be responding further. For anyone reading. If you want actual decent advice hit up Reddit medstudent/premed or studentdoctorforum.