Engineering vs. Other (appropiatly placed this time, I hope)

[billbk75]

I originally posted this in off topic. I guess that was wrong. Sorry, I'm new at this I will try to figure it out.

I am floundering on making a decision. The first part is what I have done already. The second part are some things I am considering. As far as where I want to go...I don't know. I am considering engineering and teaching, but I don't have a "calling" per se.

I am a construction electrician in the IBEW but I have only worked two months out of the last year. I need a career change, or at least a back up. Sorry it's so long.


I have the following experience:

Navy
-Nuclear Field Machinist Mate "A" School
-Cryogenic Technician School
-MM2

IBEW
-Inside Wireman Apprenticeship(5 Year)
-Teledata Apprenticeship(3 Year)

Has anyone had success getting credit for these at Excelsior? ACE shows around 100 credits for them. I wonder how many would apply to anything other than "Applied Professional". I'm thinking that BS Liberal Arts would be the quickest, cheapest way to go. Let me know if I'm wrong.

These are some things I am considering:

Option #1
Penn State Behrend-AEET/BEET/BCET

Pro
o Respected, well known school.
o Could lead to a more fulfilling, more stable career.
o Lead into EET.
o A degree to show for it in half the time compared to EE.

Con
o Computer skills would be very marketable.
o Expensive.
o A lot of driving.
o A lot of time away from home and studying when I am home.
o Probably won’t get me a job making anymore than I can make now.
o Quite difficult.
o Lack of flexibility might lead to delaying or dropping classes or turning down work.
o I’m not very excited about computers. That might just be because I don’t know much about them.

Option #2
Penn State Behrend-EE

Pro
o Highly respected degree from a highly respected school.
o Maximum financial potential.
o Huge accomplishment.

Con
o Expensive.
o Will take a very long time.
o Very difficult.
o Might get discouraged and quit.
o What I have done so far won’t count for much, at least as far as school goes.
o A lot of driving.
o A lot of time away from home and studying when I am home.
o Lack of flexibility might lead to delaying or dropping classes or turning down work.


Option#3
Distance Learning-BS Engineering Technology

Pro
o Nearly the same long term potential as Option#2 with a lot less time, money, and effort.
o A decent amount of what I have already done will count towards this.
o Qualification for jobs requiring a BS

Con
o I will need a lot of self discipline.
o Probably a pain in the ass coordinating everything.
o Will still probably need to take some classroom courses.
o Uncertain respectability of degree.
o Will take at least a couple of years.

Option#4
Distance Learning-BA Math/Natural Sciences

Pro
o Good foundation that might be helpful towards an engineering degree later on.
o Could be mostly self taught.
o A lot of flexibility.
o A good amount of what I have already done will count towards this.
o Inexpensive.
o Qualification for jobs requiring a four year degree. (Substitute teaching?)

Con
o I will need a lot of self discipline.
o Probably a pain in the ass coordinating everything.
o Uncertain respectability of degree.
o Waste of time if what I really want is an engineering degree.
o Not a qualification for jobs requiring a BS.

Option#5
Distance Learning-BA Liberal Arts

Pro
o Most inexpensive.
o I already know most of what I need to get this degree.
o Maximum flexibility.
o Qualification for jobs requiring a four year degree. (Substitute teaching?)
o A large amount of what I have already done will count towards this.
o Will knock out some requirements of Options #1 thru #4

Con
o I will need a lot of self discipline.
o Probably a pain in the ass coordinating everything.
o Uncertain respectability of degree.
o Waste of time if what I really want is an engineering degree.
o Not a qualification for jobs requiring a BS.
o Even if it is a valid and respectable degree, I think it might feel to me like it is fake.(Too easy?)

Option#6
Distance Learning-Business

Pro
o Probably close to #5 in difficulty, but more useful.
o Would be useful knowledge if I ever have my own business
o Could help me get an estimator or project manager job with an electrical contractor.
o Can be applied to any field.
o Qualification for jobs requiring a four year degree. (Substitute teaching?)
o Will knock out some requirements of Options #1 thru #4

Con
o I will need a lot of self discipline.
o Probably a pain in the ass coordinating everything.
o Uncertain respectability of degree.
o Waste of time if what I really want is an engineering degree.
o Even if it is a valid and respectable degree, I think it might feel to me like it is fake.(Too easy?)
o Estimating and project management are not what I really want to do.

I am in the process of getting my ACE transcripts and application to Excelsior. I would like to have a better idea of my major.

Bill

[jaer57]

You have made a great pro/con list! I only have one small piece of advice if you decide on an engineering career. Pay attention the the accreditation of the school. ABET is the "gold standard" for engineering degrees. Penn State's school of engineering is ABET-accredited, but if you do a distance degree you should make sure it is ABET. I believe Excelsior's EET degree is ABET accredited.

Anyways, after my service in the Marine Corps I completed an electronics degree that is not ABET accredited and found work as an engineering technician. I have noticed that while non-ABET degrees can find technician work easily, if you wish to work in an engineering position, especially design, an ABET degree is a must. Beyond that, experience is the only other way into design which is what I"m going to have to build off of. Also, if you want to be a licensed professional engineer (PE), an ABET degree shortens the path by 8 years. I need 8 years experience in engineering before I can even test for the engineer-in-training (EIT) license that a graduate with an ABET degree could test for immediately which is the first step toward a PE license. This varies by state, but it's mostly the same.

Anyways, I think you have a great pro/con list, and it's obvious you have put some real thought into this. I think you just need to decide to engineer or not to engineer. It's a very challenging and rewarding field. Good luck!

[ideafx]

I would not pursue an engineering or engineering technology degree that isn't ABET accredited. You may already know this, but I thought I'd mention it.

My father was an IBEW member for several years and completed an apprenticeship as well. I considered applying after high school, but changed my mind. I'm pretty familiar with how it works, and from what I remember, apprenticeship training counts for credit toward an associates degree at a particular community college. Not just a little credit either, but a LOT of credit.

My father completed his apprenticeship in St. Louis (IBEW Local 1), and I believe it was equivalent to 45 credits of core courses needed for an associates in electrical technology. He just needed an additional 15-18 credits in general-ed subjects to finish the degree, which he never completed.

Excelsior does offer an ABET accredited degree in EET, but they offer only a few of the necessary courses required to complete the degree. You'd probably have to take those courses at Penn State, but you can CLEP/Dantes everything else, which is nice. As you mentioned, coordinating everything will definitely be a pain.

Unfortunately, the coursework/training that you completed during your apprenticeship may not be considered ABET accredited coursework. At most community colleges, an AAS in Electricial Construction (or something similar) is very different from an AAS in EET. So, if you decide to go the BS in EE/EET route, you may not have very many credits to start with.

Here's an alternative for you:

Utilize the credits you earned during your apprenticeship toward an AAS. You need to check with your JATC to see which community college(s) will award credit for your training. Send the transcripts in and complete the additional gen-ed requirements if you haven't already. Then, you can apply to Penn Tech's online BS in Technology Management program: Technology Management Bachelor of Science Degree (B.S.) - Pennsylvania College of Technology

I believe this is a 2+2 degree. So, Penn Tech should grant you admission upon completion of an associates degree without requiring any additional gen-ed credits.

A BS in Tech Management is not as challenging as an engineering degree, but it's likely more marketable than a liberal studies degree. Perhaps you can pursue an MS in Construction Management upon completion.

Good luck.

[billbk75]

Well, I just finished the online application for Excelsior's Bachelor EET program. sometimes you have to do something, even if its not quite right. Now I just have to wait for my transcripts to get there and start pounding the math. (Why didn't I pay attention and do my homework half my life ago in high school?)

I did talk to someone at Penn State. I found out that they are alot more open to transfer credits than I thought they were. When I applied there 6 or 7 years ago (and got accepted) I didn't know about the ACE military credits and I didn't have the IBEW experience under my belt. I'm considering applying there also, just to see what they will take. I will probably end up taking some classes there anyway, labs and whatnot, so why not.

I will keep every one posted as to my progress. This forum is spectacular. I got a ton of inspiration, motivation, ideas, and advice from it and I've only been looking at it for a few ways. The only thing it lacks fro me is people pursuing technical degrees other than computers. I can see why that would be but I'm going to give it a shot anyway.

[billbk75]

Also, if you want to be a licensed professional engineer (PE), an ABET degree shortens the path by 8 years. I need 8 years experience in engineering before I can even test for the engineer-in-training (EIT) license that a graduate with an ABET degree could test for immediately which is the first step toward a PE license.

Would the PE be the same for an EET as it is for an EE? There seems to be alot of debate out there as to wether or not EETs are "real engineers". If the licencure is the same, I think that should settle the debate.

Thanks so much for the encouragement and advice.

[billbk75]

apprenticeship training counts for credit toward an associates degree at a particular community college. Not just a little credit either, but a LOT of credit.

Yes, Pellissippi Community College has 2 Associate Degrees, one that the apprenticeship covers most of and is somewhat of a dead end, and one that you have to start basiclly from scratch, get your AS and transfer to Middle Tennessee State University where the apprenticeship will be applied to a bachelors in Construction Management. I looked at this and considered it, but I've seen what construction managers have to put up with every day and it's not a job that I would work very hard to get. It's alot of paperwork and settleing disputes between trades and pushing people to maintain what seems like an impossible schedule. I realize that many engineers have to deal with this too, but not to the same extent and it's not all they do all day long (usually). Anyway, thanks for the tips. I apperciate you taking the time to answer me.

[TMW2010]

Would the PE be the same for an EET as it is for an EE? There seems to be alot of debate out there as to wether or not EETs are "real engineers". If the licencure is the same, I think that should settle the debate.

Thanks so much for the encouragement and advice.

EETs are looked at as a support degree for people assisting engineers, so from what I've seen, they're generally not considered "real engineers", which was one of the reasons that I decided to not pursue the degree, personally.

Engineers design, and EETs help the engineers implement the designs.

From Wikipedia

The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology describes the difference between engineering and engineering technology as: "Engineering and technology are separate but intimately related professions. Here are some of the ways they differ:

Engineering undergraduate programs include more mathematics work and higher level mathematics than technology programs.
Engineering undergraduate programs often focus on theory, while technology programs usually focus on application.
Once they enter the workforce, engineering graduates typically spend their time planning, while engineering technology graduates spend their time making plans work.
At ABET, engineering and engineering technology programs are evaluated and accredited by two separate accreditation commissions using two separate sets of accreditation criteria.
Graduates from engineering programs are called engineers, while graduates of technology programs are often called technologists.
Some U.S. state boards of professional engineering licensure will allow only graduates of engineering programs—not engineering technology programs—to become licensed engineers."[3]

The National Society of Professional Engineers describes the difference between engineering and engineering technology:

"The distinction between engineering and engineering technology emanates primarily from differences in their educational programs. Engineering programs are geared toward development of conceptual skills, and consist of a sequence of engineering fundamentals and design courses, built on a foundation of complex mathematics and science courses. Engineering technology programs are oriented toward application, and provide their students introductory mathematics and science courses, and only a qualitative introduction to engineering fundamentals. Thus, engineering programs provide their graduates a breadth and depth of knowledge that allows them to function as designers. Engineering technology programs prepare their graduates to apply others' designs."[4]

[billbk75]

TMW2010,
Great explanation of the difference, the clearest I've seen. I should have found it myself, Wikipedia junkie that I am.

As an electrician, I have implemented many designs. I have worked alongside and for EEs and EETs. This has been my favorite part of the job. (as opposed to plain old wire and pipe). In a perfect world I would be enrolled in EE at Penn State, but EET is certainly good enough for now.

You said that you choose not to do EET. So what are you doing? If you don't mind me asking.

Thank you for the great info.

Bill

[TMW2010]

You said that you choose not to do EET. So what are you doing? If you don't mind me asking.

Initially when I started my plan to go back to school, I was going to start an engineering degree at the local CC, and xfer to finish off a Bachelors from one of the local state schools, but then I found this board and degreeinfo... The more I thought about it, it was going to be 6-7 years to get through a B&M degree working full time (especially engineering because there were a lot of prereqs for even the CC level classes that didn't fit in the degree map.)

I reevaluated things and decided I was burnt out on the tech field after 20 years of working in it, and that I wanted a transition out of it. Initially had looked at getting a straight BS in Liberal Studies, but the more I thought about it, the more my interest developed in Psychology. (Well, I've always had an interest in the way the human mind worked, and the motives and means behind peoples actions.)

Beyond the BS, I've looked at several masters programs that would allow me to teach as well as go on to do other things with my degree.

[jaer57]

Would the PE be the same for an EET as it is for an EE? There seems to be alot of debate out there as to wether or not EETs are "real engineers". If the licencure is the same, I think that should settle the debate.

Thanks so much for the encouragement and advice.

It depends on the state. Here in Maryland the answer is yes; ABET accredited EET degrees can sit for the EIT and PE exams without any extra experience. I suggest googling the licensure body for your state and asking them directly before you decide. Also, if you get licensed in one state, it seems that all the states will reciprocate it with just a fee and no need for extra exams if you move to another state.

I do hear this debate alot, too, especially since I have a non-engineering degree and do engineering work half the time. I don't take it personally; academic snobbery exists in all professions. I will never have an engineering bachelor's degree, but that doesn't mean I can't be a good engineer. I've worked with several who don't have engineering degrees but are great engineers. Good luck!