online DHSc, NO Dissertation or Capstone, EVMS?

[Stonybeach]

Interesting that Northeastern has a DMSc for non-PAs. I am certain most people who see the DMSc on a resume will assume the person is a PA, as I do. The DNP, DMSc, and DHA are basically focused on leadership in the healthcare sector and fall under the category of doctorates, which are a nice feather in the cap but nonessential to practice. That is why I mentioned the Ed.D at ACE. At least it has more excellent utility.

I will say that the DNP is now an entry to practice doctorate as a nurse practitioner degree for many NP programs. There are still master NP programs out there, but many are changing to the DNP. The PA and NP are well-trained at the master's level. Still, universities have found an opportunity for a "money grab" by unnecessarily adding the doctorate, which is nothing more than a master's on steroids that costs twice as much. I am happy with my DHA from VUL but will consider a "real" doctorate like an Ed. D or PhD if I pursue further education. The added effort of pursuing a PhD or EdD far outweighs the utility of any DHSc, DMSc, DHA, DrPH, or DNP from an RA or NA school, especially if you are in the healthcare sector.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8120902/

[newdegree]

I would recommend Oklahoma state university DHA over Virginia university of Lynchburg anyday. I am a graduate of VUL and I will say after attending EVMS and I’m in another doctoral program right now I will say VUL just feels like a low level masters program the work is not challenging besides the research practicum but that’s more due to the professor who is a stickler for what she wants but I heard she lightened up after the first two cohorts due to complaints which is BS. I will say it’s sad when your whole graduation is over 100 doctoral students , 8 masters level students , and 4 undergraduate students. That should be red flags.

I was shocked that they started having financial problems after they started offering the cash cow DHA program. I would have thought that had made them more financially secure. Some former and current VUL employees have accused the president of stealing funds and engaging in nepotism. Aside from VUL not being regionally accredited, I wouldn't consider them an option until they remove the president. The school might never be stable until they replace the leadership.

I agree with both of you, however VUL is currently 10,000 cheaper than OK State. Despite being RA and reasonably priced, unfortunately I feel that will mean that unknowing students will continue to pick the cheaper program.

incorrect, if you transfer 30 credits from a healthcare related masters degree cost is about 17k for the remaining 32 credits plus it is regionally accredited.

[Stonybeach]

I would recommend Oklahoma state university DHA over Virginia university of Lynchburg anyday. I am a graduate of VUL and I will say after attending EVMS and I’m in another doctoral program right now I will say VUL just feels like a low level masters program the work is not challenging besides the research practicum but that’s more due to the professor who is a stickler for what she wants but I heard she lightened up after the first two cohorts due to complaints which is BS. I will say it’s sad when your whole graduation is over 100 doctoral students , 8 masters level students , and 4 undergraduate students. That should be red flags.

I was shocked that they started having financial problems after they started offering the cash cow DHA program. I would have thought that had made them more financially secure. Some former and current VUL employees have accused the president of stealing funds and engaging in nepotism. Aside from VUL not being regionally accredited, I wouldn't consider them an option until they remove the president. The school might never be stable until they replace the leadership.

I agree with both of you, however VUL is currently 10,000 cheaper than OK State. Despite being RA and reasonably priced, unfortunately I feel that will mean that unknowing students will continue to pick the cheaper program.

incorrect, if you transfer 30 credits from a healthcare related masters degree cost is about 17k for the remaining 32 credits plus it is regionally accredited.

Holy Dragons Batman, VUL DHA is now $19,500 plus tech fees. When I went, it cost about $15K minus my employer tuition reimbursement for a total of $5000 out of pocket. The price looks right at OK State, but I would still go for a "real" doctorate like a PhD, EdD, or perhaps a DBA. You will have more respect in academia and the profession overall!

[sanantone]

Interesting that Northeastern has a DMSc for non-PAs. I am certain most people who see the DMSc on a resume will assume the person is a PA, as I do. The DNP, DMSc, and DHA are basically focused on leadership in the healthcare sector and fall under the category of doctorates, which are a nice feather in the cap but nonessential to practice. That is why I mentioned the Ed.D at ACE. At least it has more excellent utility.

I will say that the DNP is now an entry to practice doctorate as a nurse practitioner degree for many NP programs. There are still master NP programs out there, but many are changing to the DNP.  The PA and NP are well-trained at the master's level. Still, universities have found an opportunity for a "money grab" by unnecessarily adding the doctorate, which is nothing more than a master's on steroids that costs twice as much. I am happy with my DHA from VUL but will consider a "real" doctorate like an Ed. D or PhD if I pursue further education. The added effort of pursuing a PhD or EdD far outweighs the utility of any DHSc, DMSc, DHA, DrPH, or DNP from an RA or NA school, especially if you are in the healthcare sector.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8120902/

The EdD, DBA, DHA, DHSc, and DrPH are all applied doctorates. I believe the DSc is the only doctorate that is intended to be the equivalent of a PhD, but Middle Georgia State University's DSc programs are not equivalent to a PhD based on the requirements. While some EdD programs require a dissertation, there are also EdD programs that require a capstone or some other culminating experience. 

ACE doesn't really carry a stigma, I guess, because it's unknown. But, for utility in higher education, I'd rather have a degree from a traditional state or non-profit university.

---

I would recommend Oklahoma state university DHA over Virginia university of Lynchburg anyday. I am a graduate of VUL and I will say after attending EVMS and I’m in another doctoral program right now I will say VUL just feels like a low level masters program the work is not challenging besides the research practicum but that’s more due to the professor who is a stickler for what she wants but I heard she lightened up after the first two cohorts due to complaints which is BS. I will say it’s sad when your whole graduation is over 100 doctoral students , 8 masters level students , and 4 undergraduate students. That should be red flags.

I was shocked that they started having financial problems after they started offering the cash cow DHA program. I would have thought that had made them more financially secure. Some former and current VUL employees have accused the president of stealing funds and engaging in nepotism. Aside from VUL not being regionally accredited, I wouldn't consider them an option until they remove the president. The school might never be stable until they replace the leadership.

I agree with both of you, however VUL is currently 10,000 cheaper than OK State. Despite being RA and reasonably priced, unfortunately I feel that will mean that unknowing students will continue to pick the cheaper program.

incorrect, if you transfer 30 credits from a healthcare related masters degree cost is about 17k for the remaining 32 credits plus it is regionally accredited.

Isn't the VUL program also more expensive if you don't have two master's degrees, or did they adjust the requirements?

[Stonybeach]

Interesting that Northeastern has a DMSc for non-PAs. I am certain most people who see the DMSc on a resume will assume the person is a PA, as I do. The DNP, DMSc, and DHA are basically focused on leadership in the healthcare sector and fall under the category of doctorates, which are a nice feather in the cap but nonessential to practice. That is why I mentioned the Ed.D at ACE. At least it has more excellent utility.

I will say that the DNP is now an entry to practice doctorate as a nurse practitioner degree for many NP programs. There are still master NP programs out there, but many are changing to the DNP.  The PA and NP are well-trained at the master's level. Still, universities have found an opportunity for a "money grab" by unnecessarily adding the doctorate, which is nothing more than a master's on steroids that costs twice as much. I am happy with my DHA from VUL but will consider a "real" doctorate like an Ed. D or PhD if I pursue further education. The added effort of pursuing a PhD or EdD far outweighs the utility of any DHSc, DMSc, DHA, DrPH, or DNP from an RA or NA school, especially if you are in the healthcare sector.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8120902/

The EdD, DBA, DHA, DHSc, and DrPH are all applied doctorates. I believe the DSc is the only doctorate that is intended to be the equivalent of a PhD, but Middle Georgia State University's DSc programs are not equivalent to a PhD based on the requirements. While some EdD programs require a dissertation, there are also EdD programs that require a capstone or some other culminating experience. 

ACE doesn't really carry a stigma, I guess, because it's unknown. But, for utility in higher education, I'd rather have a degree from a traditional state or non-profit university.

---

I would recommend Oklahoma state university DHA over Virginia university of Lynchburg anyday. I am a graduate of VUL and I will say after attending EVMS and I’m in another doctoral program right now I will say VUL just feels like a low level masters program the work is not challenging besides the research practicum but that’s more due to the professor who is a stickler for what she wants but I heard she lightened up after the first two cohorts due to complaints which is BS. I will say it’s sad when your whole graduation is over 100 doctoral students , 8 masters level students , and 4 undergraduate students. That should be red flags.

I was shocked that they started having financial problems after they started offering the cash cow DHA program. I would have thought that had made them more financially secure. Some former and current VUL employees have accused the president of stealing funds and engaging in nepotism. Aside from VUL not being regionally accredited, I wouldn't consider them an option until they remove the president. The school might never be stable until they replace the leadership.

I agree with both of you, however VUL is currently 10,000 cheaper than OK State. Despite being RA and reasonably priced, unfortunately I feel that will mean that unknowing students will continue to pick the cheaper program.

incorrect, if you transfer 30 credits from a healthcare related masters degree cost is about 17k for the remaining 32 credits plus it is regionally accredited.

Isn't the VUL program also more expensive if you don't have two master's degrees, or did they adjust the requirements?

Look, as a healthcare provider, if you are interested in management or "leadership," the MBA is still king! If you are interested in academics/teaching, the PhD or EdD is king. If you want a career in research, the PhD or perhaps the DSc is the right track for you. If you just wish post-nominals, then take a pick because many of these degrees don't have the "utility" as you may think in the healthcare sector. For example, I will not make any more money or get promoted with the DNP or DMSc, but with an MBA...yes! Example 2: I want to get into research, the PhD will get you the job. Example 3: I want to teach and become tenured faculty at a university. The EdD or PhD greatly increases your marketability. The verdict is still out for a PA with a DMSc getting full tenure but I know PAs with PhD that get tenured. What I am saying is, "What are your goals?" 1. Administrator? 2. Educator? 3. Researcher? 4. Sales? 5. Post-nominals for bragging rights? I know administrators with an MBA that got the DHA but let us be real, the DHA was for #5. I did #5, had fun and no shame. Just know what your goals are!

[sanantone]

Interesting that Northeastern has a DMSc for non-PAs. I am certain most people who see the DMSc on a resume will assume the person is a PA, as I do. The DNP, DMSc, and DHA are basically focused on leadership in the healthcare sector and fall under the category of doctorates, which are a nice feather in the cap but nonessential to practice. That is why I mentioned the Ed.D at ACE. At least it has more excellent utility.

I will say that the DNP is now an entry to practice doctorate as a nurse practitioner degree for many NP programs. There are still master NP programs out there, but many are changing to the DNP.  The PA and NP are well-trained at the master's level. Still, universities have found an opportunity for a "money grab" by unnecessarily adding the doctorate, which is nothing more than a master's on steroids that costs twice as much. I am happy with my DHA from VUL but will consider a "real" doctorate like an Ed. D or PhD if I pursue further education. The added effort of pursuing a PhD or EdD far outweighs the utility of any DHSc, DMSc, DHA, DrPH, or DNP from an RA or NA school, especially if you are in the healthcare sector.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8120902/

The EdD, DBA, DHA, DHSc, and DrPH are all applied doctorates. I believe the DSc is the only doctorate that is intended to be the equivalent of a PhD, but Middle Georgia State University's DSc programs are not equivalent to a PhD based on the requirements. While some EdD programs require a dissertation, there are also EdD programs that require a capstone or some other culminating experience. 

ACE doesn't really carry a stigma, I guess, because it's unknown. But, for utility in higher education, I'd rather have a degree from a traditional state or non-profit university.

---

I was shocked that they started having financial problems after they started offering the cash cow DHA program. I would have thought that had made them more financially secure. Some former and current VUL employees have accused the president of stealing funds and engaging in nepotism. Aside from VUL not being regionally accredited, I wouldn't consider them an option until they remove the president. The school might never be stable until they replace the leadership.

I agree with both of you, however VUL is currently 10,000 cheaper than OK State. Despite being RA and reasonably priced, unfortunately I feel that will mean that unknowing students will continue to pick the cheaper program.

incorrect, if you transfer 30 credits from a healthcare related masters degree cost is about 17k for the remaining 32 credits plus it is regionally accredited.

Isn't the VUL program also more expensive if you don't have two master's degrees, or did they adjust the requirements?

Look, as a healthcare provider, if you are interested in management or "leadership," the MBA is still king! If you are interested in teaching, the PhD or EdD is king. If you want a career in research, the PhD or perhaps the DSc is the right track for you. If you just wish post-nominals, then take a pick because these degrees really don't have "utility" as you may think in the healthcare sector. For example, I will not make any more money or get promoted with the DNP or DMSc, but with an MBA...yes! Example 2: I want to get into research, the PhD will get you the job. Example 3: I want to teach in a tenured faculty university. The EdD of PhD greatly increases your chances. The verdict is still out for a PA with a DMSc getting full tenure but I know PAs with PhD that get tenured. What I am saying is, "what are your goals?"

I haven't seen any bias against a DrPH or DHA for tenure-track positions; they just aren't as numerous as PhD and EdD programs. Considering that EdD programs rarely have a lot of relevant healthcare courses in the curriculum, I can't think of a reason why any public health or healthcare administration/management program would prefer the EdD over a DHA or DrPH. Outside of teaching in education degree programs, the EdD is the generic degree people get when doctorates are rare in their field. 

At most 4-year colleges and universities, even if they're not research-focused, a tenure-track professor is expected to publish. I don't think an EdD program is well-suited for preparing a person for advanced research or teaching in health and medicine.

[Stonybeach]

Once again, "What are your goals?" If you are a PA or NP, or PA/NP like me, the DHA will probably not get you a tenured position, but a PhD will, and perhaps an EdD. The DNP will get you an adjunct faculty position at best or help you move up the administrator ladder to a chief nursing officer. Regarding the DHA at VUL, my personal goal was to get a doctorate from an accredited school for personal satisfaction. That was my goal! Happy Holidays, I'm going to finish my eggnog.

[sanantone]

All I could gather from OP's other thread is that they want a clinically-focused degree without a dissertation or capstone. I'm not sure what they mean by clinically-focused because EVMS' program is not clinically-focused. Northeastern's program would be the most clinically-focused out of the options mentioned here, but it requires a thesis.

It might help to sample some of the capstone projects of various programs, if they're publicly available. Some programs require dissertation-length capstones while others only require 30 to 35 pages, such as Emory's DMin program. At Middle Georgia State University, one of the DScIT capstones was 10 pages, and I think another one was 18 pages excluding the appendix.

[lookingformore1]

I actually applied to VUL, but withdraw when I saw a post on here about accreditation issues. Regarding goals, I was also looking for a feather in my cap. Additionally, with a private practice being able to put doctor on the website helps with marketing. After reading this thread, I may just go for the MBA at WGU as expanding the practice to include additional clinicans will likely make me more $ than the doctorate. I do wonder if I should have withdrawn from VUL as technically I don’t need an accredited university since I am already licensed/board certified with the he masters. I am not impressed by the DNP at all, rather get a doctorate by doing additional clinicals if it came to that. Appreciate  everyone’s Input

[Stonybeach]

I actually applied to VUL, but withdraw when I saw a post on here about accreditation issues. Regarding goals, I was also looking for a feather in my cap. Additionally, with a private practice being able to put doctor on the website helps with marketing. After reading this thread, I may just go for the MBA at WGU as expanding the practice to include additional clinicans will likely make me more $ than the doctorate. I do wonder if I should have withdrawn from VUL as technically I don’t need an accredited university since I am already licensed/board certified with the he masters. I am not impressed by the DNP at all, rather get a doctorate by doing additional clinicals if it came to that. Appreciate  everyone’s Input

I don't blame anyone for hesitating to apply to a school with accreditation issues. I graduated before all this nonsense. I do, however, believe it will get resolved. Despite what other people may say, VUL really does have a noble legacy to uphold and can be so much more than this!

I felt the same way about my DNP studies. Basically, I was being drowned in more "Florence Nightingale BS." The school marketed it as a "clinical doctorate," but it was more about leadership and nursing theory as if we didn't get enough in the ASN, BSN, and MSN. I do not doubt if we gathered all the term papers nurses have ever written, we could stack them to Mars and back.

Your goal of obtaining a doctorate for "personal satisfaction" should still be worthwhile. Just be patient, and something that resonates will come up. Perhaps you can kill two birds with one stone by applying for a DBA program instead of an MBA. I'm unsure how many schools accept MSN-prepared nurses straight into the DBA. As far as WGU, I hope some folks can chime in on the reputation of its CBE MBA program. There was some mention of Doctor of Behavioral Health and PsyD without dissertations on this forum. https://cgi.edu/dbh/ Cummings has a DBH that is nationally accredited and $400 a credit with a capstone project. This could potentially put some more tools in your Psych NP toolbox! Good luck!

"What are your goals?" 1. Administrator? 2. Educator? 3. Researcher? 4. Sales? 5. Post-nominals for bragging rights? I am adding a #6. Clinician/practitioner. #7?
This may sound weird, but I enjoy the journey more than the destination.