Don't borrow money for school...it can hurt you and those close to you...

[gingerbeefE]

I see nothing wrong with the way the system currently is. People take out loans over their hard to go to a school they know they can’t afford. Families work hard to be able to give their next generation a chance to attend college. The students that pay out of pocket for themselves know very well if they can afford to go to college or not. With a large percentage of them majoring in degrees that have an average salary of 35K, they then proceed to either blame the government or the schooling system for their debt or their low paying job. You would think that on a site like this where people spend 5K on a degree max that there would be a different opinion on this subject.

There are other options; you don’t have to go to college. People make it seem like it is the only way to get a decent job. Personally, I joined the military specifically to pay for my education. I scored high enough on my ASVAB to be able to get do a job that involves using technical skill instead of having to carry around a gun to point at people. Then again, if you don’t score high enough on the ASVAB to get a good job, maybe you shouldn’t go to college to begin with. (Probably wouldn’t be in the military if I knew of this site before I enlisted.) Another option that gets overlooked 90% of the time is trades. You don’t need a degree to be a welder, IT technician, plumber, electrician, translator, salesman, the list goes on.
Free tuition in the states would murder us, not even accounting that many courses are WAY too easy to be considered higher education. The government would be controlling too many private institutions it would eventually somehow get out of hand. For example if there are 13 million college students now paying an average of 8k a year, comes out to a cost of $104,000,000,000. Cool, no big deal, we have 300,000,000 people in the United States, that is 350$ a person. Only about 122 million pay income taxes so $852 a year. Now that taxes have been raised many people can’t afford it so there are less people to pay taxes, not to mention the expecting increase in college students because now it’s free. Not to mention the colleges would likely go bankrupt because they would spend an absurd amount of money to try to keep up with the unnatural influx of new college students that would eventually slow down. (but fuck it, who cares government will bail them out anyways)

Going to college is a privilege not a right. When it lowers its standards to accommodate for the below average student to get through is when the education system is flawed. College is not for everyone. Being in the perspective of the military I see many individuals that come in because they are in debt from student loans. They put in minimal effort in college, came out with 45 credit hours, a bunch of failed classes, a 350 credit score, and a large pile of debt. Ultimately, it was their own fault; they either didn’t try or comprehend the material. Similar people that put less than 20 hours of effort into school then complain that college is too hard. IMO you would give more effort to a class if you worked many hours to pay for that class.


( jeeze, this is longer than most of the TESC essays. If I just slap and intro and conclusion and a few citations then this wouldn’t have been a complete waste of time XD. Also another example of how they are dumbing down college level work. 500 words is way too short for an essay. )

[Johann]

Also another example of how they are dumbing down college level work. 500 words is way too short for an essay. )

Sometimes, it's really dumbed down. On another forum, I complimented a poster on his style, saying his college essays must be highly original. At the time, he was finishing up a Big 3 B.A. His reply:
"Haven't had to write any essays since High School."

J.

The road to a PhD begins with a single CLEP.

[sanantone]

What I don't get is how they didn't figure out BEFORE taking out these loans how much they will be and how long they will take to pay off. They signed up for the money, now they're complaining about paying it back. I don't get it. I bought my house, signed the loan docs, and now I just make that payment every month, with no complaining. I never tweet out "Gee, only 26 years left on the loan I took."

I guess that's another thing the government has done, is let these people take out ungodly amounts of money that they may or may not be able to repay easily ($100k for private school to become a social worker making $35k when you graduate - sure!). If they made the loans based on some logical rules, such as "you can only take out x% of the projected annual income of your chosen profession" or whatever, at least that might help some. But there are just no rules. I can't go buy a $2M house just because I want to, I have to show the bank that we can pay the mortgage with a 1/3 of our paycheck. If not, then they're like "scale back honey, and join us in the real world!".

Only graduate students can get into $100k in debt without taking out loans that require credit worthiness. An extremely small percentage of undergraduate students rack up that much debt, and they do so with the help of their parents taking out credit-based loans.

The median income for a social worker varies by industry and level of license. The median income for an LMSW or LCSW is not $35, but if someone chooses to attend an expensive private school to become a social worker, then that is his or her choice. The government rarely lets people get rid of loans through bankruptcy, but I'm sure that many social workers are aware of the forgiveness programs for public and non-profit employees.

Actually, it doesn't. Because not everyone qualifies for a grant (about 38% at public universities), so the number of students getting that money is fewer, and has less effect on the marketplace of tuition. If EVERYONE at a school has the opportunity to get a loan, then the school can raise their rates and tell people "just go get a loan." But if they aren't able to, then schools can't say that, so they don't. They lower their tuition to compete for students. It's actually how the marketplace works for many, many things in the world.

If you can't afford a new iPhone or Samsung Galaxy because it's too expensive, there are tons of options for less expensive phones. Over the last few years, demand for cheaper phone service has exploded, and companies responded to that demand. The cost of cell phone plans has come down, as the companies compete against each other for your business. I pay a whopping $25/mo for unlimited text, phone and 1G of data. I paid $80 just a couple of years ago!

Look at the car marketplace - not only is there a huge range of prices for new cars, but for those who can't afford/don't want new, there is a wide range of prices and places to buy used cars.

The easy money from the government has meant that schools can raise their prices unnecessarily, and because students can put off paying for it until after they're out of school, when it's too late to do anything about it, they have no effect on the pricing. If they had to pay for it up front, they would demand better pricing or go somewhere they could afford, and colleges would be FORCED by the marketplace to make their colleges affordable, or lose students.

Not everyone qualifies for Direct Federal Loans. When people do qualify, not everyone qualifies for the max amount of loan money. As a matter of fact, the grant money adds to the problem because it can be combined with loan money to pay higher tuition rates. Many for-profit colleges know that they mostly have students who qualify for grants and loans (or military aid), so they raise their tuition rates accordingly. Some for profits have even gone past the federal financial aid limits for independent students. ITT Tech is an example. They offered their students loans at high interest rates. Someone will always find a way to take advantage of economically disadvantaged students.

[sanantone]

I see nothing wrong with the way the system currently is. People take out loans over their hard to go to a school they know they can’t afford. Families work hard to be able to give their next generation a chance to attend college. The students that pay out of pocket for themselves know very well if they can afford to go to college or not. With a large percentage of them majoring in degrees that have an average salary of 35K, they then proceed to either blame the government or the schooling system for their debt or their low paying job. You would think that on a site like this where people spend 5K on a degree max that there would be a different opinion on this subject.

There are other options; you don’t have to go to college. People make it seem like it is the only way to get a decent job. Personally, I joined the military specifically to pay for my education. I scored high enough on my ASVAB to be able to get do a job that involves using technical skill instead of having to carry around a gun to point at people. Then again, if you don’t score high enough on the ASVAB to get a good job, maybe you shouldn’t go to college to begin with. (Probably wouldn’t be in the military if I knew of this site before I enlisted.) Another option that gets overlooked 90% of the time is trades. You don’t need a degree to be a welder, IT technician, plumber, electrician, translator, salesman, the list goes on.
Free tuition in the states would murder us, not even accounting that many courses are WAY too easy to be considered higher education. The government would be controlling too many private institutions it would eventually somehow get out of hand. For example if there are 13 million college students now paying an average of 8k a year, comes out to a cost of $104,000,000,000. Cool, no big deal, we have 300,000,000 people in the United States, that is 350$ a person. Only about 122 million pay income taxes so $852 a year. Now that taxes have been raised many people can’t afford it so there are less people to pay taxes, not to mention the expecting increase in college students because now it’s free. Not to mention the colleges would likely go bankrupt because they would spend an absurd amount of money to try to keep up with the unnatural influx of new college students that would eventually slow down. (but fuck it, who cares government will bail them out anyways)

Going to college is a privilege not a right. When it lowers its standards to accommodate for the below average student to get through is when the education system is flawed. College is not for everyone. Being in the perspective of the military I see many individuals that come in because they are in debt from student loans. They put in minimal effort in college, came out with 45 credit hours, a bunch of failed classes, a 350 credit score, and a large pile of debt. Ultimately, it was their own fault; they either didn’t try or comprehend the material. Similar people that put less than 20 hours of effort into school then complain that college is too hard. IMO you would give more effort to a class if you worked many hours to pay for that class.


( jeeze, this is longer than most of the TESC essays. If I just slap and intro and conclusion and a few citations then this wouldn’t have been a complete waste of time XD. Also another example of how they are dumbing down college level work. 500 words is way too short for an essay. )

Ironically, the U.S. is the one with the system of "if you can pay, you can go." Everyone can go to college here. This is not what is happening in the European countries that offer free tuition. Their higher education systems are generally more competitive. When private organizations can open up schools, they can accept whoever they want. If they want to accept students who can barely read, then that is their right. The government doesn't control accreditation in the U.S., so it can't force colleges and universities to raise standards. All they can do is try to pull Title IV or military aid eligibility.

Being a salesperson is neither a trade nor a stable career, but you'd be surprised at how many sales jobs require or prefer a bachelor's degree. If you live in a state with strong unions, then you might have access to a lot of apprenticeships. If you live in a state with weak unions, like I do, then apprenticeships that don't require prior training in high school (if the high school you attended even offered trade programs), a community college, or a technical college are hard to find. In my state, many younger people going into the trades are either attending a public community college or technical college (public technical schools aren't accessible to most Texans) or very expensive for-profit school for a year or two. It's actually cheaper to go to a public university than it is to attend many for-profit trade schools for two years.

Across the country, we have these expensive IT boot camps springing up everywhere that charge several thousands of dollars for a few months of training. Of course, one can self-study for IT certifications, but you can't erase stupidity. The same people who take out a lot of loans to attend private schools for low-paying jobs will be the same kinds of people paying thousands of dollars for IT training at boot camps and for-profit technical colleges. I'd also like to point out that it is becoming increasingly difficult to go higher than a technical support or help desk job without a college degree.

[videogamesrock]

Here is another interesting story. He has spent 170k on graduate school. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/guy-170-00...11509.html

I like the part where he says in 2003, "I could have had pretty much any criminal-justice profession that I wanted." He is insinuating that because he went to Law School, he no longer can get a decent paying job?

[sanantone]

Here is another interesting story. He has spent 170k on graduate school. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/guy-170-00...11509.html

I like the part where he says in 2003, "I could have had pretty much any criminal-justice profession that I wanted." He is insinuating that because he went to Law School, he no longer can get a decent paying job?

He can still get a criminal justice job unless he's behind on his student loan payments or has a lot of delinquent debt. Police and corrections departments aren't going to reject him just because he has a law degree. The law degree is actually a plus for parole and probation jobs.

[cookderosa]

Here is another interesting story. He has spent 170k on graduate school. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/guy-170-00...11509.html

I like the part where he says in 2003, "I could have had pretty much any criminal-justice profession that I wanted." He is insinuating that because he went to Law School, he no longer can get a decent paying job?

I think that means the he could have gone in other directions that led to a profession other than law, but not necessarily that his BA qualifies him for work. I think there are so many things in this story that it's easy to say this guy is some kind of exception- that he wasn't studious or resourceful, which would be true if this wasn't happening all. The. Time. to people. This kid went in with a 4.0, so he's not a dummy, but he also didn't pass the bar twice (in fairness CA has a terrible reputation for low bar pass rates, but if I'm not mistaken, isn't CA still a state that you can take the bar without a law degree?) Anyway, the rub for me is how he's trying to be resourceful applying outside the normal jobs but can't get hired because of the brand of his law school. I beg to differ, that's simply ridiculously ignorant.

[sanantone]

I think that means the he could have gone in other directions that led to a profession other than law, but not necessarily that his BA qualifies him for work. I think there are so many things in this story that it's easy to say this guy is some kind of exception- that he wasn't studious or resourceful, which would be true if this wasn't happening all. The. Time. to people. This kid went in with a 4.0, so he's not a dummy, but he also didn't pass the bar twice (in fairness CA has a terrible reputation for low bar pass rates, but if I'm not mistaken, isn't CA still a state that you can take the bar without a law degree?) Anyway, the rub for me is how he's trying to be resourceful applying outside the normal jobs but can't get hired because of the brand of his law school. I beg to differ, that's simply ridiculously ignorant.

I question this guy's intelligence. Getting a 4.0 while majoring in criminal justice isn't all that hard. hilarious So, he believed that he could go to Baylor or University of North Texas, but he went to a non-traditional, low-ranked, very expensive school instead? I'm thinking that his LSAT score was low. CJ majors generally do have the lowest LSAT scores. Why is he driving for Uber? There are always openings in corrections, and California pays a lot. In Texas, there are several high-paying police departments that are always hiring. Even if he took a job as a parole officer that only paid $35k, that would still be a lot better than driving for Uber. Those jobs may not be what he wants to do, but he obviously doesn't want to drive for Uber either. Plus, government jobs usually offer great insurance plans (his wife has cancer). When you have kids to feed, you do what you have to do. And, what happened to his managerial job at GameStop?

If he has delinquent debt that prevents him from getting a job in CJ, then the financial institutions he's been applying to aren't likely to take him either. Almost every time I read one of these stories, I almost always end up not feeling sorry for the person. There are usually so many things they could have done to prevent their situations.

[LaterBloomer]

How times change. My grandmother would not marry my grandfather until he became a captain in the US Army as she did not think he could provide for a family on a lower salary. If memory serves, my father said that enlisted soldiers couldn't marry until they became sergeants for the same reason. So, this guy is over $100,000 in debt, can't get a job, and that munchkin of his looks young. After his other mistakes, he thought bringing a child into the world that he couldn't afford was a good idea?

His story reminds me of the old saw, "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is." He "researched" the school and the fact that it had such good hiring results compared to other schools - especially schools of higher caliber - didn't raise a red flag? My suspicion? He won't prevail.

Part of me thinks I'm a cold-hearted witch for my comments on his situation. The other part of me says if he didn't want folks talkin' about his business, he shouldn't have put it out there.

[mednat]

I think that means the he could have gone in other directions that led to a profession other than law, but not necessarily that his BA qualifies him for work. I think there are so many things in this story that it's easy to say this guy is some kind of exception- that he wasn't studious or resourceful, which would be true if this wasn't happening all. The. Time. to people. This kid went in with a 4.0, so he's not a dummy, but he also didn't pass the bar twice (in fairness CA has a terrible reputation for low bar pass rates, but if I'm not mistaken, isn't CA still a state that you can take the bar without a law degree?) Anyway, the rub for me is how he's trying to be resourceful applying outside the normal jobs but can't get hired because of the brand of his law school. I beg to differ, that's simply ridiculously ignorant.

CA has strange bar requirements (in comparison to the rest of the US). My general take on it is, it's easier to sit for the bar there, but much harder to pass. Most say the CA bar is the hardest to pass. I like this approach, especially for professions that serve others. I want my lawyer to be competent, i don't care much about which school he attended, but I DO care that he knows the law.

The bigger problem I see here, is the assumption that education is a guarantee of a job. I see it time and time again, and have even been guilty of it myself. The fact of the matter is, it's just not true. There seems to be a certain amount of entitlement that some students have after they obtain their degree that will likely lead to serious disappointment. There are many other factors that are required to get a job.

Some may call me insensitive, but I believe it's important to decide if you really want to be a lawyer before you rack up 170k in debt. If you do decide that is the path you want, I think it's critical to study for and pass the bar. No matter how many attempts it takes. It is not uncommon to fail the bar twice or even more times. Determination is required here. The CA bar is hard, you're not a dummy if you fail twice. Giving up on the goal just short of attainment after racking up 170k in debt on the other hand....