Why Charter Oak State College is better than Thomas Edison State College

[Exfactor]

I'm not going to argue the merits of a name or lack of name. Like I've said I gave my personal opinion on that – and I buy an Apple product in confidence based on its reputation and yes even the logo/build of the product, which I think is pretty

And thats fine, good luck on your general studies degree.

[sanantone]

I was comparing doing the same coursework (i.e. same UExcel exams, same DSSTs, etc.) if done through TECEP.


Most importantly, I think instantcert.com tried to figure out which subjects had the most doable subjects, and I think students naturally tend to gravitate towards the exams that are easiest, and most doable – and instantcert.com and degreeforum.net’s instantcert forums reflect that.

The popularity of TECEPs has been increasing recently because of the Per Credit Tuition Plan and online proctoring. Uexcels are becoming less popular because of the new test fees. These are recent changes. Recent posts on the forum reflect the increasing popularity of TECEPs. Instantcert will eventually see that there is more of a market for TECEPs.

True, but test taking also tests logical thinking and analytical ability as well –*being able to write is half of the equation, the other part is developing/having a proficiency in the subject.

Multiple choice testing is less likely to test for logical and analytical thinking. There is a reason why it's often mocked as multiple guess testing. Having to write essays is a much better way of measuring analytical thinking. I do not give my upper level students any multiple choice tests or quizzes. They are required to write out the answers, not guess between 4 or 5 options. The professors in our program have told the teaching assistants that multiple choice tests are not recommended for upper level students.

This is true, and in those cases they should look into ensuring good GPAs and possibly completing a degree from a “better” name school.

Not really. Your GPA, test scores, and letters of recommendation are way more important than the school you attended.

On the other hand, I would argue that the time you’d have to put into the TECEP degree would mean it’s more involved –*and time is money in the end. If you have to spend more time scouring and reading a textbook (which I’d personally argue is one of the worst ways to prepare for a standardized exam), those are lost hours.

Completing the cornerstone and capstone at COSC is much more expensive and takes way more time. Penn Foster courses can also be time-consuming.

What you are personally doing, Sanantone, is commendable, and you do get the benefit of saving a couple grand because of that. However, most people cannot do that (what you are doing is more out of reach for most people than what I am advocating)

Most people can't complete your plan either.

Well, I’m making an assumption that a person is of average intelligence, decent work ethic, and has a demonstrated interest in at least passing the exams. I think that’s not too much to expect of an average person. These exams I mentioned are certainly not as in-depth as a traditional course, and the pass rates, forum feedback, flash cards, practice exams, etc. seem to strongly suggest that they are very doable. That’s why they post on the instantcert.com website their pass rates (of course there is a selection bias where people who pass are more likely to report info than those who fail –*but still data is data).

There are changes that have happened within the past year. The Per Credit Tuition Plan and making TECEPs available online has made them more attractive. There was no incentive to take them before. Uexcel added a $50 testing fee for 3-credit exams and a $60 testing fee for 6-credit exams. More people on this forum just recently started taking TECEPs, so I'm sure Instantcert will see that there is more of a market. Aside from Strategic Management, I would have never taken a TECEP if it weren't for the Per Credit Tuition Plan and online proctoring. I even avoided taking Uexcels, and I still have no incentive to take them.

Again, referring to the average, motivated person (maybe our definitions are different), who doesn’t have any out of the ordinary major academic/mental deficiencies, all other things being equal, would you want to take an exam just knowing what the breakdown of the exam is, or having practice tests and/or flash cards and/or forum advice? Yes, some people want to do more in-depth studying, and that’s fine, but it’s reasonable to assume that most people are spending a few grand for a degree mainly to have the degree for career/academic advancement purposes. Yes there are life learners, etc – and in those cases, I would actually steer them away from these exams, and push them towards MOOCs that do a better job of giving a comprehensive education (I’m talking about Udacity, Udemy, Coursera, Open MIT, Open Stanford, Open Harvard, etc.)

Most people choose not to test out at all. Your average person chooses to complete a degree with mostly coursework.

I’d always take reported incomes, particularly from Payscale, with a grain of salt. I think GlassDoor’s data is better on that regard. JD’s incomes are grossly exaggerated post-law school, as are college graduates. The age-old statistic that college graduates make a million more than a high school graduate are not always accurate given how expensive college has become, and the dearth of jobs available in this day and age. Certainly, for the bachelor’s degree, opportunities HAVE gone downhill, unless they are in a technical/in high demand field i.e. engineering, CS, health, etc.

Glassdoor's data is based on people choosing to self-report. This is called self-selection bias. This is much less accurate than conducting a survey using random sampling.

I'm trying to figure out your plan for COSC. I see you included the student fees, tuition, and application fee. I don't see the graduation fee. After adding up all of the fees and tuition, I'm getting $2,946 (this does not include the costs for completing the other requirements. Can you somehow complete a plan that looks like mine so that we can see a complete breakdown of the costs?

Some of the stuff you listed for TESC is inaccurate. I redid my test out plan using the Enrolled Options Plan. Even if you add in study materials, I don't see how you could get up to $6,900.

BSBA in General Management

General Education

English Comp I: CLEP Composition General (6 credits) - $100
English Comp II: Overage from CLEP - $0
College Algebra or Quantitative Analysis: ALEKS College Algebra - $20
Managerial Communication: Saylor Corporate Communication - $25
Electives in Intellectual and Practical Skills: ALEKS Precalculus (or Trigonometry, duplicates) (easier alternative is ALEKS Intermediate Algebra) - $20
=$165

Human Cultures and the Natural and Physical World
Macroeconomics: CLEP - $100
Microeconomics: CLEP - $100
Statistics: ALEKS Intro to Statistics, Business Statistics, or Statistics for Behavioral Sciences - $20
=$220

Humanities, Social Science, Natural Science, or Interdisciplinary Electives (9 credits)
Any 6-credit liberal arts test (Recommended: Analyzing and Interpreting Literature) - $100
ALEKS Intermediate Algebra (if used above, replace with Intro to Psychology CLEP and add $100) - $20
=$120

Personal and Social Responsibility
Diversity/Global Literacy: Any qualified CLEP/DSST (Recommended: Intro to Sociology CLEP) - $100
Responsible Ethical Leadership: Any qualified CLEP/DSST (Recommended: Ethics in America DSST) - $100
Ethics or Diversity Elective: Any qualified CLEP/DSST (Recommended: Human/Cultural Geography or General Anthropology DSST) - $100
=$300

General Education Electives (18 credits)
Saylor Intro to Western Political Thought - $25
Saylor Calculus I - $25 (easier alternative is Environment and Humanity DSST, add $75)
Saylor Chemistry - $25
Saylor Biology - $25
6-credit CLEP (Humanities, Social Science and History, Natural Science, English Literature, American Literature, or foreign language) - $100
=$200

Business Core
Principles of Finance: DSST - $100
Business Law: Saylor Business Law and Ethics - $25
Business in Society: Business Ethics and Society DSST - $100
Strategic Management: Penn Foster - $237
Computer Requirement: Saylor Intro to Computer Science I - $25
Intro to Marketing: Saylor - $25
Principles to Financial Accounting: CLEP - $100
Principles of Managerial Accounting: Straighterline Accounting I- $149
Principles of Management – Saylor $25
=$786

Area of Study Options 18 credits (Credits must be in at least three areas out of Accounting, Management, Finance, and Marketing. At least 12 credits must be upper level.)
Management: Human Resources DSST - $100
Finance: Money and Banking DSST – $100
Management : DSST Management Information Systems - $100
Accounting: Straighterline Managerial Accounting (counts as Cost Accounting) - $149
Management: Saylor Business Statistics (counts as Operations Management) - $25
Management: DSST Organizational Behavior - $100
=$574

Business Electives
6 credits from TEEX - $0
Any qualified business CLEP/DSST (Recommended: Principles of Supervision or Intro to Business DSST) - $100
=$100

Free Electives (6 credits)
NFA (3 credits) - $0
Kaplan PLA - $0
=$0

Total: $2465
With graduation ($299), enrollment ($3154), technology fee ($125) and application ($75): $5993
With transcript fees from ACE ($40), CLEP ($20), and DSST ($30): $6208

[KittenMittens]

Everyone, I'm sure Kitten Mitten's meant to post "Why COSC is better than TESC for ME". You had some good points which was completely lost when you indirectly attacked the school choice of members on here. COSC can be much cheaper and better for some students, excelsior for others and TESC for the rest, and (surprise), a non-Big 3 school may be a better choice for others.

I don't think I ever indirectly attacked the school choices of members – maybe that was the perception given how some here are peculiarly sensitive about the degree, all I said was that for me, I felt that Excelsior College sounded lame. More importantly, I said that Excelsior College generally was more expensive than TESC, and COSC, and pickier on their requirements.

My post was about picking a degree that had the best bang for the buck. I believe that Sanantone's degree plans are the cheapest, but probably too difficult for the typical person – mainly because there is an absence of practice exams, forum advice, and instantcert review materials. I could do it, but I don't want to spend the time going through textbooks for that. If Excelsior College had, what I thought was the best bang for the buck as far as price, convenience, and ease overall, I would have gladly picked them instead. The name game was not a primary factor in my recommendation. More importantly, all three degrees are regionally accredited, and they're not probably going to make you the CEO of a fortune 500 company, or CEO of a Facebook like company, or a high level executive on Wall Street –*and the name differences marginal, but it's at least something for some people who are peculiar about things like that to think about – and there's no harm on that.

I am sure that my advice will help people because I know several other posters have done the same program, and credit for the original program goes to burbuja0512 for designing it. If it doesn't apply to your particular situation then more power to you, and if it does, then great!

[KittenMittens]

And thats fine, good luck on your general studies degree.

Congratulations on your general studies degree too . I'd say a second degree in business administration on top of my original B.S. in Economics/Political Science from India rom almost 40 years ago (I'm 55 years you know), is a worthwhile achievement. I am no genius or particularly extremely hard working, and working a full time job and raising a family are jobs of their own.

[sanantone]

One of the things I would say about you Sanantone is that you are definitely more motivated than the average or even motivated person. You are like an enyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to this stuff, to that I humbly concede, and I used your sample guides on the wiki for deciding between TESC and COSC.

I actually would have preferred to go through TESC – so any comments people are making that I am dissing their colleges should not be relevant as far as TESC and COSC go (I wasn't even dissing Excelsior – the education is all the same, I was merely talking about the name game which is a relevant factor for many).

The major problem I had with your degree programs (and I like to think that I am fairly competent, intelligent, and decent work ethic), was the lack of quick, easy, and practical materials for the TECEP exams. If TECEP had those, as well as sufficient Instantcert/DegreeForum materials, I would have gone with them. I'm a decent/good test taker, and whether it has been in college, or standardized exams, the golden rule has always been to obtain old exams from previous students, taking lots of practice questions/exams, and using the best review materials possible. In many cases, that has meant materials like The Princeton Review, Kaplan Review, InstantCert.com, Cliff's Notes, etc. I'm sure that I would personally pass some of the exams for TECEP, but not without a great deal of annoyance and frustration not knowing what would probably be on the exam. I would caution and urge most students to absolutely always do practice exams and use a good review material/book for any standardized exam and I think that's good advice in general.

Instantcert doesn't know anymore than any of us what is going to be on the exam, and they often get it wrong. All guides are based on test breakdowns supplied by the test maker. The Peterson's exams are okay for practice, but they really aren't anything like the real thing. The only good practice exams are the official ones that come from the test maker. By the way, the TECEP descriptions give you many example questions along with the answers. There are also questions you can answer within the recommended textbooks. TECEPs often take questions directly from the recommended textbooks.

[Exfactor]

Congratulations on your general studies degree too . I'd say a second degree in business administration on top of my original B.S. in Economics/Political Science from India rom almost 40 years ago (I'm 55 years you know), is a worthwhile achievement. I am no genius or particularly extremely hard working, and working a full time job and raising a family are jobs of their own.

Since when did Excelsior offer such? India? Oh... Now I see why your so hooked on school names... never mind.

[sanantone]

The point I am trying to make is that Hyundai sounds bad to me even though I know they make quality products. Their Hyundai Azera which is their flagship $40,000 car is a beautiful, and well-crafted product, but for $40,000, I would rather prefer to buy a BMW or a Mercedes instead even if it's of less/cheaper quality. The name Hyundai for whatever reasons, sounds cheap even though I know they make quality products now.

Perhaps a better analogy is a person's name – I can speak from personal experience having an indian name that many Americans have trouble pronouncing my name, and I know from personal experience that it has harmed me in various ways –*so I've used an American nickname instead. People like the nickname more, it's easier to pronounce, and it's more familiar and relatable to them. So I can definitely say that name has an effect –*now whether or not that effect is measurable is another thing, but I think some names are more popular than others (i.e. John, Chris, Sara, etc.).

You would not by a Hyundai because you think the name sounds cheap? That doesn't sound very smart. Schools with the best reputations have them because they are selective, most have been around for over 100 years, they produce high-quality research, and they hire the best professors. It has nothing to do with how their names sound. Employers would have a bias toward students who graduated from Stanford because they know that Stanford is a high-quality school that only admits the best students.

[KittenMittens]

The popularity of TECEPs has been increasing recently because of the Per Credit Tuition Plan and online proctoring. Uexcels are becoming less popular because of the new test fees. These are recent changes. Recent posts on the forum reflect the increasing popularity of TECEPs. Instantcert will eventually see that there is more of a market for TECEPs.

Right, and when that happens then it will become a more attractive option. Until then, it currently isn't that popular, and the data that is out there suggests that as well (from instantcert.com, degreeforum student advice, practice exams).

Even if the test fees are $111 per TECEP exam, comparing that to UExcel’s which are $145/each – it’s not a deal breaker. It’s $34 difference, which isn’t a deal breaker at least for the type of student this is geared to. I think most students would be fine paying the extra $34 knowing that there are practice exams, instantcert materials, and forum advice for those topics. Right now the way TECEP exists, there are practically no materials available and like I mentioned earlier, they only have flash cards for 3 subjects versus UExcel which has 10 or 11.

Multiple choice testing is less likely to test for logical and analytical thinking. There is a reason why it's often mocked as multiple guess testing. Having to write essays is a much better way of measuring analytical thinking. I do not give my upper level students any multiple choice tests or quizzes. They are required to write out the answers, not guess between 4 or 5 options. The professors in our program have told the teaching assistants that multiple choice tests are not recommended for upper level students.

Depends on the test you’re taking. There is a place for coursework and there is a place for standardized exams. There is more personal discretion in how a grade is given out particularly in less technical subjects (i.e. liberal arts) and how a professor feels at any given moment. With a standardized exam, everyone is compared to the same standard. Exams like the medical college test, MCAT, law school test LSAT, graduate level test, GRE, GMAT, the USMLE, SAT, etc. are known for being extremely rigorous and challenging and I don’t think anyone would make the argument that they are irrelevant. Certainly top tier programs put a lot of emphasis on them and they are producing leaders, visionaries, and innovators. I think both matter and a healthy balance of the two are important. Standardized exams DO test logical/analytical/comprehension ability under timed/pressurized conditions.

Not really. Your GPA, test scores, and letters of recommendation are way more important than the school you attended.

That’s highly debatable. Good luck getting into Harvard Law, Wharton School of Business, or any top tier institution from a “no name” “general” college. Where you went matters far more in most subjects (with the exception to some degree for hard sciences and engineering). If you want to go into law school, business school, or medical school, I can say with certainty that where you went has more of an impact than your GPA (within reason of course – i.e. 3.1 GPA from Harvard in Sociology >>> 4.0 from Charter Oak for reason). If I was an employer, I would gladly take a 2.8 –*3.3 student from UC Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, etc. compared to one that went to any of the 3 schools I mentioned above, and the trend clearly shows that as well.

Completing the cornerstone and capstone at COSC is much more expensive and takes way more time.

Most people will not be doing the “per credit” option like you because they won’t take 8 credit exams through TECEP. The data shows that again on instantcert.com (they show the pass rates for each subjects and more students at this point in time are taking UExcel exams for whatever reasons)

Penn Foster courses can also be time-consuming.

From personal experience, which I obtained thanks from people in this forum, the ones I mentioned are stupidly easy. Penn Foster’s Financial Management course is so stupidly easy, that if you can’t pass that one, then neither of our plans should be in someone’s book.

Most people can't complete your plan either.

Well, what subset of the population are we talking about? I’d say it’s more doable, and likely that people can do the plan I (& others have done too) did more easily simply for the fact that A) there are documentable practice exams, flash cards, student advice on the subjects & B) FEMA credits that can be transferred in C) easy Penn Foster coursework.

I would say with certainty that more people are likely to pass the UExcel exams I described in the wiki compared to the TECEP ones because A) they are more documented thanks to the practice exams, flash cards, student forum advice B) Excelsior College like you mentioned has far more students than either COSC or TESC combined so it will naturally have far more students taking the exams.

There are changes that have happened within the past year. The Per Credit Tuition Plan and making TECEPs available online has made them more attractive. There was no incentive to take them before. Uexcel added a $50 testing fee for 3-credit exams and a $60 testing fee for 6-credit exams.

Yes, in the foreseeable future, for now I don’t think the $34 difference is enough of a deal breaker for most students to go for a TECEP exam where you’ll have to crack open a textbook to prepare for compared to concise, short, and precise study guides through instantcert.com, the instantcert forum, and practice exams. In fact, the original pioneers of the rapid bachelor’s degree programs (like bain4weeks.com) specifically mention the use of CLEP, DSST, and Excelsior exams.

More people on this forum just recently started taking TECEPs, so I'm sure Instantcert will see that there is more of a market. Aside from Strategic Management, I would have never taken a TECEP if it weren't for the Per Credit Tuition Plan and online proctoring. I even avoided taking Uexcels, and I still have no incentive to take them.

I do hope that those materials come out –*and if they become more popular then even better for everyone.

Most people choose not to test out at all. Your average person chooses to complete a degree with mostly coursework.

We’re in a time period where 5 - 10 years ago, you couldn’t even get a college degree online, or even in many cases, take coursework online for credit. This has changed become of the advances in computer software and technology. The other trend that has been happening and perhaps already happened is that as the bachelor’s degree becomes more widely accessible for people, the less valuable it becomes, so the Master’s will naturally become the new Bachelor’s degree and the Ph.D. the new Master’s (indeed this trend has already happened over a decade ago).

Glassdoor's data is based on people choosing to self-report. This is called self-selection bias. This is much less accurate than conducting a survey using random sampling.

Well – PayScale often gives pay ranges that are so inaccurate sometimes that don’t properly reflect their markets. Sometimes less is more –*you have to be able to evaluate each and every data point with a grain of salt – all I’m saying is that I would never really rely on income reports from colleges who are advocating for themselves or even USNews rankings. Anyone can google how skewed the incomes are for college graduates. Payscale’s report shows, “Among college graduates nationwide,Excelsior College earned the top overall ranking when it comes to the highest median salary for those with a bachelor’s degree in liberal arts – $79,000 by mid-career (an increase from a median starting pay of $47,000).” Like you said the typical Excelsior College graduate tends to be mid-career and probably in their 30s or 40s and that’s why their median salary is already higher. It would be unfair to compare a liberal arts degree from Harvard (for the sake of exaggeration/argument) with one from Excelsior, where one individual is 22 and the other say 45.

I’m trying to figure out your plan for COSC. I see you included the student fees, tuition, and application fee. I don't see the graduation fee. After adding up all of the fees and tuition, I'm getting $2,946 (this does not include the costs for completing the other requirements. Can you somehow complete a plan that looks like mine so that we can see a complete breakdown of the costs?

Ah, I forgot to add the application fee – I’ll correct/adjust that in a bit. I was just doing an apples to apples comparison doing the Enrolled Options Plan using the same coursework I did/detailed for COSC (forgoing the TECEP exams based on the aforementioned reasons of lack of prep materials) with the addition of Penn Foster’s Strategic Management course. The cost hits $6,900 for TESC with my plan idea because of the use of 4 Penn Foster Exams (PF Financial Management, PF Strategic Management, PF Employee Benefits, and Penn Foster Microeconomics).

Like I said, my course outline isn’t the cheapest, but it’s not the most expensive – it’s around $6,000, but it can be cheaper forgoes the Penn Foster courses and goes with Straighterline instead of Penn Foster. My plan is about not going intensely like yours with the 8 TECEP exams which I felt was much riskier.

[mednat]

I believe any attempt to make a general statement about which school is "best" is doomed to be, at best, short sighted and, at worst, harmful. I tend to agree with the logic of your first test to study for is the selection of a school/program. I started with Excelsior and after researching switched to TESC due to the easier to meet upper level requirements and cheaper tuition (using Per-credit TECEPS). So many factors in this decision are based on an individuals unique position that it would be very egotistical for me to think that I knew the best program for someone else, without knowing their situation, goals, etc.

With that said, as others have stated.

A.) COSC is not neccessarily cheaper. The cost factor is dependent on so many variables, I can only conclusively say that TESC can be cheaper than COSC. Given the plans I've seen most students follow, TESC typically comes out cheaper. This is not always true and each student should research this as if their checkbook depended on it (because it does).

B.) Easier is too subjective to even comment on intelligently. So suffice it to say, it may or may not be easier.

C.) TESC could use a more comprehensive list of what does and does not transfer, however with research I've had no trouble finding out what my source were going to transfer as. I will concede , given my lack of knowledge of COSC and the horrible state of advising at TESC, that COSC (or almost any other school) is probably better in the advising department in general. Excelsior definitely is from my experience.

D.) Fema credits mean nothing to me. I have so many easily obtainable general ed and free elective credits that were cheap and quick that I have no need to study a subject that I have no interest in. If this is related to an interest that the student has or a focus of their major -- by all means they should use them. However, with the tons of available ACE/NCCRS credits and CLEP options, I've found it extremely easy to fill the free-elective and general education credit slots.

I would say in my experience Excelsior has a significant advantage over TESC from an advising standpoint, but that for me TESC accepted many sources I had as upper level credit, where Excelsior would not.

Bottom line, research your options thoroughly and make the choice that fits your needs the most. If the name matters to you, pick one that you like the sound of. If a general studies degree bothers you, don't peruse one. The list goes on and on and on.

[KittenMittens]

Since when did Excelsior offer such? India? Oh... Now I see why your so hooked on school names... never mind.

Uh –so far in this thread all you've done is made ad hominems and blatant attacks based on racism and stereotyping based on whatever preconceived notions you have about India. I'm curious what you think about blacks, or Chinese too...

But more importantly, you're criticizing someone from with a liberal arts degree, from a no name/lower tier college... that is not something to really be that boastful about. It sounds like to me you're more upset more than anything else, and that's fine, just don't think your degree is or is going to be seen as any better than anyone else from the other 2 schools.