What is going on?! I feel for this guy!

[Sapientes]

This is a good point.

It takes a fair amount of humility and integrity to acknowledge when the other guy has point. You sir, rock!

[eriehiker]

Haha! You rock as well.

[acamp]

Haha! You rock as well.

You both rock; that’s exactly what’s needed in this culture and world today - having civil disagreements without attacking the other person who has a different view.

[davewill]

my understanding is that the burden of proof on a hate crime is hard to prove, it's not worth getting this thrown out just to make a political statement. If the woman doing the hitting said "go back to Mexico" and this man was actually FROM Mexico, in my opinion, she didn't say anything wrong.  Attempted murder is cut and dry - assuming they can find these people, which they haven't yet been able to do.

The hate crime laws are NOT a political statement. It's a recognition of the intent of the person to not just commit the specific act, but to specifically target a group of people. In this case, doing it hoping that it will discourage Latinos from walking around the neighborhood or living near her.

Also, making it a hate crime can literally make a federal case out of it, which brings a lot more resources to the investigation.

[cookderosa]

my understanding is that the burden of proof on a hate crime is hard to prove, it's not worth getting this thrown out just to make a political statement. If the woman doing the hitting said "go back to Mexico" and this man was actually FROM Mexico, in my opinion, she didn't say anything wrong.  Attempted murder is cut and dry - assuming they can find these people, which they haven't yet been able to do.

The hate crime laws are NOT a political statement. It's a recognition of the intent of the person to not just commit the specific act, but to specifically target a group of people. In this case, doing it hoping that it will discourage Latinos from walking around the neighborhood or living near her.

Also, making it a hate crime can literally make a federal case out of it, which brings a lot more resources to the investigation.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. From the little we have to go on, I don't see how one woman hitting one man with a brick is making a statement about a group of people. She clearly had issues with this ONE person, and they haven't caught her or the others yet. This feels like gang activity to me, especially since she called in a group of young men to help her. Perhaps it was racial, perhaps it was gang turf, perhaps he started it - we don't know any of that. I've probably gone as far down this path as I'm going to go, I'm not of the opinion that everyone should share my opinion, but I'm strongly attached to the idea that I get one - and that is part of what keeps our laws working for everyone.

[sanantone]

Um ... she wasn't wearing a MAGA hat. I don't believe any of the other 4 assailants were either. To your point about small towns and a culture of hate ... this happened in Los Angeles ... a large town well known for being politically Democrat. I don't think the President has much sway there so I'm struggling to see how they took their queues from him. I also don't think she would have put her brick down if the President had a cabinet more to your liking.

Agreed!  This is LA, a FAIRLY large town...my son was just telling me it's population is greater than 22 states.  And I'm not sure if you've heard, but it's a pretty blue voting district.  So I don't think "racist Trump" is the issue here.

No. Blacks and Hispanics often don't get along in LA. There are racist people of color.

---

I don't use the term lightly.  I just watch what is going on and President Trump is clearly a racist.

If someone was a racist though, do you think they would want to help or hire any of those races they supposedly hate or dislike?  Have you ever seen the variety of people who Trump hires?  If your ever in NYC, check out Trump Tower to see all his racially diverse workers he has (many in high positions as well).  

Either way, let’s keep this civil and we will agree to disagree.   Nothing wrong with differing views.  

Enjoy your Wednesday!

Everyone is beholden to discrimination laws. Do I think a racist person would hire people he or she supposedly thinks little of? Yes, because they do it all the time, and they do it just enough to avoid getting sued. Being racist doesn't automatically mean that you're going to be violent or violate the law. It also does not mean that you aren't going to have friends, acquaintances, or employees from the group you think is inferior. Especially if you're hiring for menial jobs, why would you not hire from a group you think is inferior?

People in certain groups who excel are seen as outliers. I had a white supremacist tell me that black people aren't as smart and that I wasn't like other black people because of my white ancestry. That was a dumb claim because most African Americans have white ancestry. He had a crush on me and would try to bring me gifts; it was weird. 

Even Hitler employed people from the groups he hated. The basic definition of racism is thinking that a race is inferior. Strom Thurmond was about as racist as they came, and he had a half black daughter. Halle Berry claimed that the white father of her first child called her the n-word. I don't know if that's true because the rumor is that she's crazy, but situations like that are not unheard of.

[sanantone]

She was arrested and charged with assault with a deadly weapon. I won't be surprised if there is no attempted murder charge. To get a conviction on that, the prosecution would have to prove that she intended to murder him.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post...r-country/

[alexf.1990]

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deleted

[davewill]

my understanding is that the burden of proof on a hate crime is hard to prove, it's not worth getting this thrown out just to make a political statement. If the woman doing the hitting said "go back to Mexico" and this man was actually FROM Mexico, in my opinion, she didn't say anything wrong.  Attempted murder is cut and dry - assuming they can find these people, which they haven't yet been able to do.

The hate crime laws are NOT a political statement. It's a recognition of the intent of the person to not just commit the specific act, but to specifically target a group of people. In this case, doing it hoping that it will discourage Latinos from walking around the neighborhood or living near her.

Also, making it a hate crime can literally make a federal case out of it, which brings a lot more resources to the investigation.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. From the little we have to go on, I don't see how one woman hitting one man with a brick is making a statement about a group of people.  She clearly had issues with this ONE person, and they haven't caught her or the others yet.  This feels like gang activity to me, especially since she called in a group of young men to help her.  Perhaps it was racial, perhaps it was gang turf, perhaps he started it - we don't know any of that.   I've probably gone as far down this path as I'm going to go, I'm not of the opinion that everyone should share my opinion, but I'm strongly attached to the idea that I get one - and that is part of what keeps our laws working for everyone.

I agree that it would take a lot more than what we know to make any real judgement about whether this case qualifies as a hate crime. However, most hate crimes are individual actions, not mass events. Yes, one woman assaulting one old man isn't much of a statement, but I think that it's important to take a stand against hate at the small level so that it doesn't escalate and become widespread. Hate is mostly made up of lots of small actions, which if condoned by society can become something truly ugly. Also, it was apparently not one woman, but a group of people assaulting the man, which makes it much worse, in my opinion.

P.S. I also agree that this discussion has probably gone too far afield and agreeing to disagree is probably where we're at.

[sanantone]

Most murders involve people who are familiar with each other, so other types of murders are considered a bigger danger to society. Other types of murders often come with enhanced sentences. Depending on the state, one can face the death penalty if one commits a murder during the commission of another felony i.e. robbery. Murdering a public servant is usually a death penalty-eligible crime. Murdering someone simply because he or she belongs to a certain group poses a broader danger to society than the more frequent murder of passion involving friends, acquaintances, family members, romantic partners, business partners, etc. who are having some kind of dispute.

The murder of James Byrd Jr. was so shocking to the conscience, it's the reason why Texas has a hate crimes law. He and Matthew Shepard are also the reason why federal hate crimes laws were strengthened. Imagine having a group of men beat you, urinate and defecate on you, and being alive while being dragged until your arm and head severed from your body solely because of your skin color. It was reminiscent of the thousands of lynchings that occurred from the end of the Civil War until the 1920s. I'm of the opinion that these types of crimes deserve a stronger deterrent and that the severity of punishments is a reflection of a society's values. The severity of a punishment also tells people the degree to which something is socially unacceptable.