What do you think of coding bootcamps?

[sanantone]

Years ago, I looked into ground programs that ranged from $4k-$8k. Their courses were able to be condensed because students had to spend all day in class. So, not only would one likely have to take out a private loan, but one may also not be able to work a full-time job.

Recently, I read more about ground and online coding bootcamps popping up everywhere. I was astonished that many of them charge more than $15,000 for a few months of coursework. Granted, it's reported that most people find high-paying jobs after graduating.

My interest is in whether or not this is just another case of people being too lazy to look into community and public technical colleges. The argument is that these coding bootcamps are trade schools that don't waste people's time on electives and general education costing students much less than earning a 4-year degree. But, what about community and public technical colleges that offer online and ground certificate programs in programming? Most community colleges charge about $1,500 per semester or less for in-district and/or in-state students. While working full-time, I was able to handle 12 credits in online courses per semester at a community college.

Maybe these coding bootcamps offer a higher quality education. Maybe they have more connections with employers. I'm a really cheap person, and I would struggle with teaching myself using free resources before paying $15,000 to $30,00 for a few months of education. I understand that some people may be able to secure sponsorships from employers.

[ajs1976]

Its a great idea but it seems like it may becoming the next educational scam / gimmick.

[jsd]

I understand why you'd want a professional/academic certificate to validate your knowledge, but coding really is one of those things that you can learn entirely on your own with free self study skills and tearing apart other people's code. Those prices are nuts.

Even if you'd struggle teaching yourself like your edit says, there's so many MOOCs that would assist in a way that wouldn't seem so much like you're on your own that the price just doesn't make sense.

Like you said, if you really need face to face or extra support, no reason not to do CC on top of self study.

[sanantone]

I don't know how true this is, but an employer in this article says that coding bootcamps teach students how to pass tests given by recruiters. Once they get the job and they're asked to do something different, they don't know how to.

Why a coding bootcamp probably isn’t right for you | Fusion

I have a free subscription to Lynda.com through my school, but I think it's worth the $20-30 a month. I don't think their certificates of completion mean much since you only need to watch the videos to earn them, but they are something that you can put on your LinkedIn profile (LinkedIn owns Lynda.com). Their videos are very high quality. They have hundreds of ours of videos on programming and IT. The $20 plan gets you access to the videos. The $30 plan gets you access to project files and offline viewing.

There are free coding websites, such as Code Academy, where you can practice coding for free.

[clep3705]

Some people get great jobs after attending a coding camp. That is a fact. What is the yield, how many people obtain a return on investment? That is unknown.

This isn't the first time in history that coding camps have popped up. In the late 1990s, many people paid around $10,000 for MCSE training, Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer. Winners obtained jobs paying $80,000 a year. Most weren't that lucky. MCSE wasn't programming as coding was called back then. The popularity and success (success for the purveyors of the training) of the MCSE fueled the offering of classes on how to program. Java and SAP (mainly ABAP) code camps came into being. Some people taught themselves on the cheap. Other people succumbed to the high pressure sales tactics of paying for the classes. Suckers would borrow money to pay for the classes. Trainers were getting paid around $100/hour to teach the classes with rates higher for the more specialized classes.

Going back further in time to the 1960s, magazines like Popular Science and Popular Electronics had advertisements for mail order courses to learn how to pass the FCC Radio Operator's First Class License exam. Supposedly this would enable people to get a great job. It was good for a few people, but not the masses. One of the biggest and most heavily advertised purveyors of FCC license exam preparation was Cleveland Institute of Electronics. Long after the FCC license exam preparation market disappeared, they started offering MCSE training. Now that the MCSE market is long gone, they are still in business offering courses in Java and C#.

If you want to make money, don't attend a coding camp. Offer a coding camp.

[ajs1976]

This isn't the first time in history that coding camps have popped up. In the late 1990s, many people paid around $10,000 for MCSE training, Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer. Winners obtained jobs paying $80,000 a year. Most weren't that lucky. MCSE wasn't programming as coding was called back then. The popularity and success (success for the purveyors of the training) of the MCSE fueled the offering of classes on how to program. Java and SAP (mainly ABAP) code camps came into being. Some people taught themselves on the cheap. Other people succumbed to the high pressure sales tactics of paying for the classes. Suckers would borrow money to pay for the classes. Trainers were getting paid around $100/hour to teach the classes with rates higher for the more specialized classes.

I started in 2000 and worked with some people that fell for the MCSE training scam. They were sold on the "get your MCSE and make $80,000", but the part that was left out was that most of the people that were making that money after, were probably making over $70,000 before with years of experience and used the MCSE to get raise or a new job.

[dfrecore]

This is in reply to the MCSE thing. My husband and his brother were two of those who paid $10,000 for MCSE and other certifications. First, there was really nowhere else to gain the knowledge they gained (this was 1998). Second, it was self-paced, and super fast. They flew through the classes in less than 3 months. CC would have taken 2+ years, IF they could have found somewhere that offered computer courses like that (there weren't any near where they lived).

BUT, they got out, and IMMEDIATELY got great jobs. They both have had very successful careers making many multiples of that $10k. I think he started at $40k, and moved to $80k within a couple of years. His brother started working for Cisco for maybe double that. They both paid off their loans within a few months of getting out. So, I would say that it was WELL worth the cost.

Oh yeah, and my husband was 22 with no experience in computers, and his brother was 19 and just graduated from HS for a few months with zero work experience.

Definitely not a scam.

[dfrecore]

I don't know how true this is, but an employer in this article says that coding bootcamps teach students how to pass tests given by recruiters. Once they get the job and they're asked to do something different, they don't know how to.

Why a coding bootcamp probably isn’t right for you | Fusion

I have a free subscription to Lynda.com through my school, but I think it's worth the $20-30 a month. I don't think their certificates of completion mean much since you only need to watch the videos to earn them, but they are something that you can put on your LinkedIn profile (LinkedIn owns Lynda.com). Their videos are very high quality. They have hundreds of ours of videos on programming and IT. The $20 plan gets you access to the videos. The $30 plan gets you access to project files and offline viewing.

There are free coding websites, such as Code Academy, where you can practice coding for free.

I would think that it just totally depends on the circumstances. CC is going to take you years, because you have to take Class A as a prerequisite for Class B, and then you can take Class C and so on. At our local CC, it will take you 3 semesters minimum to take the courses you need for the AS in IT, based strictly on the prereqs. So if you can find a way to do it faster, even if it's more than $2250 plus books (so $3000-ish), it may be worth the cost. $15k is probably way too much, but $3k for over a year and a half is way too long. Something in between would be awesome. If you can find free stuff that will get you what you need, more power to you.

[jsd]

This is in reply to the MCSE thing. My husband and his brother were two of those who paid $10,000 for MCSE and other certifications. First, there was really nowhere else to gain the knowledge they gained (this was 1998). Second, it was self-paced, and super fast. They flew through the classes in less than 3 months. CC would have taken 2+ years, IF they could have found somewhere that offered computer courses like that (there weren't any near where they lived).

BUT, they got out, and IMMEDIATELY got great jobs. They both have had very successful careers making many multiples of that $10k. I think he started at $40k, and moved to $80k within a couple of years. His brother started working for Cisco for maybe double that. They both paid off their loans within a few months of getting out. So, I would say that it was WELL worth the cost.

Oh yeah, and my husband was 22 with no experience in computers, and his brother was 19 and just graduated from HS for a few months with zero work experience.

Definitely not a scam.

I'm happy it worked out for them, but in 1998 it was pretty easy to pass those exams cold, even more so than today, if you had any experience in the field or a hobbyist fascination with computers. My coworkers are some of the people who did just that in the late or mid 90s, and they're not the kind of people I'd rely on.

Your husband and brother in law may be the type of people I WOULD rely on, and I'm sure they're earning every dollar that they're being paid. But I'd wager their MSCE certification has little to do with that.

[ajs1976]

Glad it worked out for them. I did the self study route and that has worked out for me too. Here is the catch:

I think he started at $40k, and moved to $80k within a couple of years.

That is realistic, but not what was promised to a lot of people. It was complete the program and make $80k almost immediately.

These code camps and cert camps are great as long as they are from the right training provider to the right person in the right situation. The cert camps are still out there, but not as popular. To many employers got burned by hiring paper tigers or dumpers who cheated their way through the exams sometimes with the help of the training providers.