Therapist here... questions about further education

[sanantone]

Doctor of Health Science. I have threads on a few of the programs that don't require dissertations.

Faulkner University offers a PhD in Health Sciences that can be completed in 18 months. The dissertation coursework is designed to be completable in 6 months.

After seeing your comment, I went to Faulkner's DHSc page, and it can be completed in 14 months. I think this is the shortest completion time I've seen advertised for a regionally accredited, non-clinical doctorate. Hypothetically, one can complete a doctorate in 12 months at Oklahoma State University depending on how many transfer credits are accepted from one's master's degree, but I haven't seen it advertised.

[IHateEducation]

Thank you everyone for the responses. I think I have some homework to do in researching some of these schools and programs. I've never even heard of the DBH or the DHSc degrees to be completely honest. I tried looking them up on indeed and I didn't see any companies hiring people with these degrees. I'll do some more research on them... but what kind of jobs could I obtain with these types of degrees?

I think the other thing is, aside from the OSU degree, these other options seem to be out of my price range. Faulker is going to cost about 35k for example, EVMS is going to cost about 42k, etc. I'm also completely agreeable to the DMFT degree/ PsyD Degrees in Marriage and Family therapy but these also add up to quite a bit. I was looking at Fuller Seminary for example as it is near me here in LA and the DMFT was going to cost like $77k! Eastern is at 30k which isn't bad at all but the 4-6 year timeline is turning me off from that as well (whereas Fuller was only 2 years).

The DPC option(s) still seem to be the best bang for the buck to be honest. Can anyone else think of anything before I settle on the DPC? Teaching in the future isn't mandatory I would just LIKE that option to be on the table. Teaching a class or two a semester wouldn't be too bad as it would offer me the opportunity to be out of the therapy room one or two days a week. I just don't know if a DPC program is going to open that door.

[bjcheung77]

There are so many options you're selecting from, review the course content and see if you're really interested in each and every subject that they teach, or if these are subjects that you're interested in. Some degrees are more 'business' and 'department management', doesn't really teach you the 'health' side of things...

[sanantone]

Thank you everyone for the responses. I think I have some homework to do in researching some of these schools and programs. I've never even heard of the DBH or the DHSc degrees to be completely honest. I tried looking them up on indeed and I didn't see any companies hiring people with these degrees. I'll do some more research on them... but what kind of jobs could I obtain with these types of degrees?

I think the other thing is, aside from the OSU degree, these other options seem to be out of my price range. Faulker is going to cost about 35k for example, EVMS is going to cost about 42k, etc. I'm also completely agreeable to the DMFT degree/ PsyD Degrees in Marriage and Family therapy but these also add up to quite a bit. I was looking at Fuller Seminary for example as it is near me here in LA and the DMFT was going to cost like $77k! Eastern is at 30k which isn't bad at all but the 4-6 year timeline is turning me off from that as well (whereas Fuller was only 2 years).

The DPC option(s) still seem to be the best bang for the buck to be honest. Can anyone else think of anything before I settle on the DPC? Teaching in the future isn't mandatory I would just LIKE that option to be on the table. Teaching a class or two a semester wouldn't be too bad as it would offer me the opportunity to be out of the therapy room one or two days a week. I just don't know if a DPC program is going to open that door.

I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of too many employers seeking counselors with doctorates since only a master's degree is required. Counseling doctorates are usually earned for the doctor title, which helps with marketing, but you might not be able to use the doctor title if you're working around professions that are licensed at the doctoral level. For example, nurse practitioners with a doctor of nursing practice degree can't use the doctor title when working with physicians and psychologists because that confuses patients. 

Healthcare administration and healthcare management degrees are earned by healthcare professionals who want to move into management. Out of the degrees discussed so far, healthcare administration/management doctorates are probably the only ones that have ROI outside of academia. Within academia, healthcare administration instructors are paid more than mental health and social science instructors. A masters-level clinician with a doctorate is still reimbursed by insurance as a masters-level clinician. Licensed psychologists are reimbursed at a higher rate.

As for job search with a DBH or DHSc, one would focus more on management-level positions. You wouldn't search for DBH or DHSc. You would search for behavioral health and health science. Employers aren't specifically looking for a DPC either. There are so many degree acronyms out there, and new ones pop up all the time. If it's not something common like an MBA, then you have to search by degree content.

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Here's an example of a professor with a DHSc. She likely didn't search for "DHSc". She likely searched for assistant professor openings in health-related departments or degree programs. The job ad called for a doctorate in a related field, which she had, so she applied.

https://sph.tulane.edu/sbps/megan-weemer

[eLearner]

I don't think speed should ever be the idea with a Doctorate, and usually any Doctoral program that emphasizes speed isn't a good one.

Personally, I wouldn't deal with a DBH. I have no issue with those programs, I just don't see anything about them that can't be accomplished by other programs with deeper roots and for less money.

The DPC at Kairos is the best bet definitely for the price and the live class interaction setup it has, but you have to already be a Professional Counselor for 3 years post-Master's, be licensed, and carrying insurance to get admitted into that program.

The DHSc is a fine degree that can set you up for teaching in the healthcare field, but I personally question its adequacy for that because most DHSc programs in the United States are just Healthcare Administration degrees and should really be titled as such. The only ones I can think of in the United States that actually focus on clinical health is the one from University of the Pacific and the one from University of Bridgeport. The one from Pacific is a 1-year program for about $27-36K. The one from Bridgeport is a few years and with a required residency. The price is about $41K.

A Doctorate in Professional Counseling will not likely put you in a teaching position. It's meant to be a program to enrich your knowledge and skills as a Professional Counselor through being in the company of other Professional Counselors. Doctorates in Professional Counseling are not new or unknown degrees. Some of them go under different name variants and are sometimes PhD programs.

None of the aforementioned degrees are likely to lead to licensure. The DHSc won't. The DBH almost certainly won't. There may be a state or two that may have some language that could allow you to be licensed in an applied manner, I know Virginia does that, but you'll have to look into it to see if the program you're interested in will work as it has to clear a number of standards and educational requirements.

[sanantone]

I don't think speed should ever be the idea with a Doctorate, and usually any Doctoral program that emphasizes speed isn't a good one.

Personally, I wouldn't deal with a DBH. I have no issue with those programs, I just don't see anything about them that can't be accomplished by other programs with deeper roots and for less money.

The DPC at Kairos is the best bet definitely for the price and the live class interaction setup it has, but you have to already be a Professional Counselor for 3 years post-Master's, be licensed, and carrying insurance to get admitted into that program.

The DHSc is a fine degree that can set you up for teaching in the healthcare field, but I personally question its adequacy for that because most DHSc programs in the United States are just Healthcare Administration degrees and should really be titled as such. The only ones I can think of in the United States that actually focus on clinical health is the one from University of the Pacific and the one from University of Bridgeport. The one from Pacific is a 1-year program for about $27-36K. The one from Bridgeport is a few years and with a required residency. The price is about $41K.

A Doctorate in Professional Counseling will not likely put you in a teaching position. It's meant to be a program to enrich your knowledge and skills as a Professional Counselor through being in the company of other Professional Counselors. Doctorates in Professional Counseling are not new or unknown degrees. Some of them go under different name variants and are sometimes PhD programs.

None of the aforementioned degrees are likely to lead to licensure. The DHSc won't. The DBH almost certainly won't. There may be a state or two that may have some language that could allow you to be licensed in an applied manner, I know Virginia does that, but you'll have to look into it to see if the program you're interested in will work as it has to clear a number of standards and educational requirements.

Healthcare administration is, technically, a healthcare field as far as academics go. It just isn't a clinical or scientific field. Healthcare administration professors can be employed in a business department, public health department, health professions department, or medical school. It just depends on how the college chooses to house their programs. Starting in a clinical role is the easiest way to get into healthcare administration because employers value that experience. 

It's all about what the person wants to do. Many in patient-facing positions want to move on to management and administrative positions. Some of them might want to teach healthcare administration/management, health science, or public health instead of classes related to their former clinical roles. If a former counselor wants to teach counseling, then I would recommend a CACREP-accredited doctorate because holding a CACREP-accredited degree is increasingly becoming required for clinical mental health or professional counseling faculty. 

Outside of fields that have programmatic accreditation requirements or preferences, sometimes it's not necessary to have a doctorate that's directly related to what you're teaching. Sometimes, it just needs to be semi-related because you'll be relying on your master's degree to be considered qualified faculty. It used to be easier to get a job teaching in applied fields with just a master's degree, but with the market becoming so competitive, you just need a doctorate to check the box. A lot of people get generic EdDs just so they can be competitive for tenure-track positions. 

Virginia's applied psychology license requires a psychology doctorate housed in a psychology department and taught by psychologists. The doctorate just doesn't have to be in health services psychology, which is school psychology, clinical psychology, and counseling psychology. The applied psychology license is for people who earned what would be considered non-license-eligible psychology doctorates in almost every other state. 

Side note: The applied psychology license still requires all the typical core courses, such as biological basis of psychology, tests and measurements, developmental psychology, etc. If you earn one of the dissertation-only psychology doctorates at Capitol Technology University, it might not be license-eligible in Virginia.

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Get Educated ranks counseling/therapy doctorates by cost. If the program has COAMFTE or CACREP accreditation, it'll be noted on the side. If you go the professional counseling route, I recommend a CACREP-accredited degree because CACREP is expected to require this in the future. Currently, CACREP is listing it as a preference. Also, the VA requires CACREP accreditation, but that might not be an issue for you if your master's was CACREP-accredited.

https://www.geteducated.com/online-colle...-online/#/

[eLearner]

@Sanantone

Healthcare administration is, technically, a healthcare field as far as academics go. It just isn't a clinical or scientific field. Healthcare administration professors can be employed in a business department, public health department, health professions department, or medical school. It just depends on how the college chooses to house their programs. Starting in a clinical role is the easiest way to get into healthcare administration because employers value that experience. 

It's all about what the person wants to do. Many in patient-facing positions want to move on to management and administrative positions. Some of them might want to teach healthcare administration/management, health science, or public health instead of classes related to their former clinical roles. If a former counselor wants to teach counseling, then I would recommend a CACREP-accredited doctorate because holding a CACREP-accredited degree is increasingly becoming required for clinical mental health or professional counseling faculty. 

Considering that the OP is going after clinical degrees, it appeared that the OP's interest is in teaching clinical programs at some point. I don't think there is any confusion on what Healthcare Administration degrees aim for, I just think it's important for people who are interested in a clinical path to know that the typical DHSc in the United States is really a Healthcare Administration degree rather than a degree meant for patient-facing purposes.

Outside of fields that have programmatic accreditation requirements or preferences, sometimes it's not necessary to have a doctorate that's directly related to what you're teaching. Sometimes, it just needs to be semi-related because you'll be relying on your master's degree to be considered qualified faculty. It used to be easier to get a job teaching in applied fields with just a master's degree, but with the market becoming so competitive, you just need a doctorate to check the box. A lot of people get generic EdDs just so they can be competitive for tenure-track positions. 

I've known people to do that kind of thing even below the Doctoral level, but I've never seen the point of doing that unless a person isn't sure of what they want to do, but if that's the case they shouldn't be getting a Doctorate in anything. Come Doctorate time, a person should be certain of what they want to do. Besides that, not going after the exact Doctorate in the very thing you intend to do with your life is just a wasted opportunity to learn and sharpen your expertise in that thing, and be locked-in and interested in your personal growth.

Virginia's applied psychology license requires a psychology doctorate housed in a psychology department and taught by psychologists. The doctorate just doesn't have to be in health services psychology, which is school psychology, clinical psychology, and counseling psychology. The applied psychology license is for people who earned what would be considered non-license-eligible psychology doctorates in almost every other state. 

That wasn't quite what I remembered reading back when I did, but upon a second review I see that line 'A' of the Virginia law states: "The applicant shall hold a doctorate from a professional psychology program from a regionally accredited university." So that would of course eliminate all of the programs he mentioned before even getting to the other stipulations.

[sanantone]

@Sanantone

Healthcare administration is, technically, a healthcare field as far as academics go. It just isn't a clinical or scientific field. Healthcare administration professors can be employed in a business department, public health department, health professions department, or medical school. It just depends on how the college chooses to house their programs. Starting in a clinical role is the easiest way to get into healthcare administration because employers value that experience. 

It's all about what the person wants to do. Many in patient-facing positions want to move on to management and administrative positions. Some of them might want to teach healthcare administration/management, health science, or public health instead of classes related to their former clinical roles. If a former counselor wants to teach counseling, then I would recommend a CACREP-accredited doctorate because holding a CACREP-accredited degree is increasingly becoming required for clinical mental health or professional counseling faculty. 

Considering that the OP is going after clinical degrees, it appeared that the OP's interest is in teaching clinical programs at some point. I don't think there is any confusion on what Healthcare Administration degrees aim for, I just think it's important for people who are interested in a clinical path to know that the typical DHSc in the United States is really a Healthcare Administration degree rather than a degree meant for patient-facing purposes.

Outside of fields that have programmatic accreditation requirements or preferences, sometimes it's not necessary to have a doctorate that's directly related to what you're teaching. Sometimes, it just needs to be semi-related because you'll be relying on your master's degree to be considered qualified faculty. It used to be easier to get a job teaching in applied fields with just a master's degree, but with the market becoming so competitive, you just need a doctorate to check the box. A lot of people get generic EdDs just so they can be competitive for tenure-track positions. 

I've known people to do that kind of thing even below the Doctoral level, but I've never seen the point of doing that unless a person isn't sure of what they want to do, but if that's the case they shouldn't be getting a Doctorate in anything. Come Doctorate time, a person should be certain of what they want to do. Besides that, not going after the exact Doctorate in the very thing you intend to do with your life is just a wasted opportunity to learn and sharpen your expertise in that thing, and be locked-in and interested in your personal growth.

Virginia's applied psychology license requires a psychology doctorate housed in a psychology department and taught by psychologists. The doctorate just doesn't have to be in health services psychology, which is school psychology, clinical psychology, and counseling psychology. The applied psychology license is for people who earned what would be considered non-license-eligible psychology doctorates in almost every other state. 

That wasn't quite what I remembered reading back when I did, but upon a second review I see that line 'A' of the Virginia law states: "The applicant shall hold a doctorate from a professional psychology program from a regionally accredited university." So that would of course eliminate all of the programs he mentioned before even getting to the other stipulations.

Earning an EdD or some other generalist degree is common in fields with few doctoral degrees. Oftentimes, a job ad will say that they will hire a tenure-track professor with a master's degree, but with the proliferation of online doctorates, you're probably not going to be a top applicant with just a master's degree. 

Two fields that I'm aware of in which professors often don't have a directly-related doctorate are safety and forensic science. Doctorates in those fields are few and far between. Before the creation of the DMSc, there were probably physician assistants earning more generic doctorates. 

Another reason I've heard for earning a generic doctorate was the lack of online doctorates in a particular field. One of my professors wanted to teach international relations, but there were no online doctorates in IR way back then, so he earned a PhD in leadership.

[IHateEducation]

Thank you all again for the wisdom you've been sharing in this thread, I greatly appreciate it. I'm going to have to spend some time doing some research and these schools and these degrees and will either respond back here or post another thread.

Quick update: I spoke with Kairos and they informed me that since I'm not done with my hours yet and aren't a fully licensed therapist, I won't be able to enroll in the program. I'm about a year out from this... we did talk about the schools DMin program and it has me looking back at this option.

This question is for the people who are familiar with this degree: Is the DMin a degree that could possibly fit the criteria I cited earlier? Namely, could I still teach a course or two at a local school (I doubt a secular institution would be ok with this)? Does anyone know how flexible these programs are and would I be able to do my doctoral work around secular counseling through a Christian lens or something of the sort? The reason I ask is because while I am a Christian and my faith is important to me, I don't want it to hurt myself since I am a professional therapist. I don't want future clients to look at this degree and label me as a "Bible only" or solely a "Christian Therapist" or something of the sort. Then again, it could help bring in clientele that share similar religious views...

Thoughts?

[cc95]

Thank you all again for the wisdom you've been sharing in this thread, I greatly appreciate it. I'm going to have to spend some time doing some research and these schools and these degrees and will either respond back here or post another thread.

Quick update: I spoke with Kairos and they informed me that since I'm not done with my hours yet and aren't a fully licensed therapist, I won't be able to enroll in the program. I'm about a year out from this... we did talk about the schools DMin program and it has me looking back at this option.

This question is for the people who are familiar with this degree: Is the DMin a degree that could possibly fit the criteria I cited earlier? Namely, could I still teach a course or two at a local school (I doubt a secular institution would be ok with this)? Does anyone know how flexible these programs are and would I be able to do my doctoral work around secular counseling through a Christian lens or something of the sort? The reason I ask is because while I am a Christian and my faith is important to me, I don't want it to hurt myself since I am a professional therapist. I don't want future clients to look at this degree and label me as a "Bible only" or solely a "Christian Therapist" or something of the sort. Then again, it could help bring in clientele that share similar religious views...

Thoughts?

Did you have a MDiv already or was that not required for admission to Kairos DMin?