The Duggars and CollegePlus

[Jonathan Whatley]

[On the question of whether the first two years in college is usually a review of high school:]
Generally speaking yes... personally speaking absolutely. Everything in my first section for my degree, I knew a large amount of it even before finishing HS. The exception probably being, some more advanced/complex economic issues for Macro and Micro, and Managerial Communications. Everything else, English, W Civ I & II, College Math, Algebra, Precalc, Stats, Biology, American Gov, History of US I & II, SS&H, A&I Lit, and Intro to World Religions. I'm not saying I didn't need to study for those, but I had a great foundation and needed more of a brush up cause 75-90% of the info I already learned. BTW, I even specifically said, there are exceptions […] and the medical field is one.

We certainly agree that there's an overlap here: Some strong students will graduate from high school at or close to the outcome levels of some associate's degrees in liberal studies.

You make a strongly stated case that there's a very large overlap between the first two years of college in general and high school in general. We've put aside health and pre-health as an exception where the first two years of college add much value. I think we could also put aside reasonably solid programs in any individual STEM field. If your college physics department is really putting students into the third year who as a whole perform only marginally better than representative high school graduates, I think you have an exceptionally weak physics department.

I think we could put aside most programs highly focused in skilled professions. I understand there are great high school programs in auto mechanics, culinary arts, HVAC and refrigeration, etc. Yet, I think a solid graduate of a solid two-year associate's in these and other career fields will generally have much stronger knowledge and skill in their field.

Say a student has studied the Bible and Christian belief from early childhood to high school. If the general rules proposed apply here, wouldn't we tell them they have little to gain from 100- and 200-level college courses in Bible and Christian theology, and that 300- and 400-level courses, they'll "never use?"

If not, we should probably start excepting studies in Christianity. The same should apply to studies in Judaism – there seems to be population of Jewish students, by the way, who bring their religious educations to the Big Three; Excelsior and Charter Oak have Judaic Studies programs and/or capstones – and in other religions with rich traditions that, considered neutrally as academic content areas, people can do a whole lot with.

Then, I think it's self-evident that smart students given smart faculty and two years can similarly do a whole lot to explore many other bodies of knowledge and skill – including languages, literatures, other expressive arts, and social sciences – to much greater breadths and depths than they would have reached in high school.

I think you're drawing conclusions about the first two years of college in general based on about 60 semester hours of survey courses, widely distributed and mostly matching subjects from high school courses, that you tested out of.

This was a great strategy to get you where you want to go. I think you're an outstanding example of a star student of the Big Three.

Still, I think that not all, but very many people go into much greater depth in at least one field, probably their major, in the first two years of college than they came close to in high school.

And then there's waving off the second two years in many fields as material most will "never use." Again, respectfully, I have to disagree.

[sanantone]

Sorry, I'll clarify. When I say discrimination, I mean the dictionary definition. I mean making a distinction in favor or against someone based on what group that person belongs to instead of judging on individual merits. I do not mean the modern definition of discrimination, which implies persecution. If someone says 30+ year olds should do this but not 18 year olds, they are making a distinction (or discriminating) based on age. I do not mean to imply that they are persecuting anyone or taking away their rights.

There are two types of discrimination. There is discrimination in recognizing differences between two things. This definition is generally not used when referring to discrimination against people because it really has nothing to do with ethics or legality. Several dictionary definitions include the word "treatment" when referring to discrimination against people. To say that one group is better suited for something is not discrimination. Tall people are better suited for basketball. Muscular people are better suited for football. So what? To really do something in favor or against someone requires an action. But there are biological differences between those over the age of 25 and under 25. The frontal lobe of the brain is not full developed until the age of 25. This part of the brain is active in decision making. Older people tend to do better in online classes because they are more mature and better at time management. But going back to the college party student, who's to say that people testing out of their degrees are not out partying and drinking too?

It's not really about who is better suited for what. Older people with established careers and children to care for often choose to attend school online because they almost have to. Attending college on campus, even part-time or at night, is difficult. Younger people who have no one to provide for and are living with their parents have the opportunity to go the traditional route. It's about taking advantage of the opportunities in front of you. But, generally speaking, the Big 3 are good at checking the box for those with significant experience. Younger people without much work experience tend to need to do more than just check the box. There really aren't that many degrees that you can mostly test out of at the Big 3 in the first place.

[Westerner]

But, generally speaking, the Big 3 are good at checking the box for those with significant experience. Younger people without much work experience tend to need to do more than just check the box. There really aren't that many degrees that you can mostly test out of at the Big 3 in the first place.

Maybe so, but the Big 3 fulfill needs of particular young people (Christian and not), which is why it can be a great choice for them too.

[Cyrus]

The thing I hate about CP is that they say they coach the student, but so many are on here seeking free advice. Why isn't CP providing this info? I wouldn't be surprised if CP is a former member who monetized what we provide for free. And the worst part is that is done under the guise of "Christian" education. I think the Christian thing to do is to point people to this site where they can get that info free rather than for 3k.

Hey... watch it... you are getting close to being offensive. You may be right. Not all coaches actually coach, but don't go and bash all of them, and give them a bad name. My coach has bent over backwards, and helped even when I did not ask for it. You may be right. Some coaches may be taking advantage, but that is not what CP is for... so, please, choose your words more carefully, and research, and talk to others before you jump to conclusions... failing to do so is what gives people and things bad names...

CP is not just to help you know about CLEP and other tests. They help you in other areas. They make sure you are prepared for the test, keep you on track, find other options and open up a lot that is just overwhelming for a single individual... I could go on, but there is no need for that in this comment...

[Cyrus]

That still doesn't make their "services" worth $3k, especially when some of their members have to come here for free advice.

Debatable.... Lots of people think it does...

[Daithi]

I'm pretty much done with the CP debate --- that dead horse is starting to smell. However, I think the side debate on recent high school grads going the test out route is pretty interesting. I'm pretty much in agreement with Publius.

The advantages of being able to earn a degree cheaply and quickly are just as strong a draw to the young as the old. Every year not in school is a year you can be bringing in a real salary, and you can be earning a salary without a ton of debt sitting over your head. I also agree with his assertion that earning a BS or BA a couple years quicker than grads with whom you are competing can be an asset instead of liability in terms of finding a job. If I were hiring an entry level position, I'd be pretty impressed with an 18 or 19 year old kid who has already earned a bachelors. This goes doubly for an intern position where I have little risk in trying him out for a couple months. The way I see it is not so much that he is knocking the traditional student down (as someone else stated), but he is setting himself a apart by proving that he can accomplish a goal (earn a degree) faster and cheaper than other students. [As a side note, I actually am quite impressed with Publius. I thought he was much older. He writes and argues his position very well.]

When I really was 18 (it was a while ago) I joined the Army, because I pretty much hated school. Plus, I wanted to be a computer programmer, and I was able to get a guarantee from the Army that they would train me as a programmer. I also believed that having 4 years experience working as a computer programmer in the Army would give me an edge over people who only had degrees. I was absolutely right. The Army trained me to be a programmer; I did the exact same job as Army civilian programmers; I was just was paid a lot less than the civilian programmers. Four years later, when I got out of the Army, I had no problem finding a job, because I had lots of experience and plenty of people to use as references. It was the smartest thing I ever did.

If I were doing it all over again today, I would start testing out of college courses while I was still in high school. I'd do everything I could to earn my BS while I was still in high school. Then after I graduated I would go into the service as an officer this time around, but I'd probably go into the Navy, and I'd probably make it a career (officers make decent money and have great retirement benefits).

This kind of career appeals to me, but I'm sure it doesn't appeal to everyone. However, even if I had other career aspirations, I'd still take advantage of testing out as much as possible. If I were going for a STEM field I would try to find a college that would accept an AA or AS from one of the Big 3 so that I could get my real degree a couple years early. If I were trying to get into Med school or a big name grad school, I still might even do the Big 3 test out route followed by a year long Post Bacc program at a state university. If I were in high school and trying to get into Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, or Yale then I'd still be taking advantage of CBEs to help me standout against my peers.

[Cyrus]

Some CP students start to rely more on this forum as they get into their UL work, which this forum has more and better feedback on than what CP has.

Another thing is that CP doesn't just help with prepping for tests. They have a Life Purpose Planning segment in which students take time to consider what they want to do with their lives, and then decide their college plan, instead of rushing in and wasting time and money on something that doesn't fulfill God's plan for them. As they are a Christian company, lots of prayer and Bible reading is encouraged. I know that this part helped me a lot in my college decisions and I'm really glad I did it. So CP's not just about telling you how to take your tests. It's not just giving info you can find here for free. It's doing a valuable service to the Christian community.

I think that if you want this Forum to be better known, work to raise awareness, but don't tear down others who are also doing a service.

So true. I have experienced it first hand... even edited what I said I was majoring in (check my profile) because of CP's course.

College Plus is so much more than a program that teaches students how to test out of classes. Yes, it is nice to get through college quicker and for less money; however, College Plus is concerned with empowering students with a Christian worldview and giving them a quality education. As part of College Plus' program, students are able to customize their degree program to fit around their life. CP students are encouraged to take advantage of education opportunities like apprenticeships or internships. Education is sometimes more than "just racking up the credits". If you are only concerned with getting done with school quickly and without debt, you may set out on your own without a company like College Plus to guide you. CP simply makes the college journey easier and is instrumental in enriching students' lives.

You are not to study to learn just to forget... but to LEARN from what you study. That means having retained knowledge you picked up in your CLEPS. That is part of what CP does for you. It helps you actually learn, and retain the knowledge you get.


Hey. Look guys. I have noticed several times that people have called this forum FREE. It is not. I don't know about the rest of you, but I had to buy a subscription to be able to get on here. They had it locked otherwise. Couldn't view a thing. Just thought I should mention that to set people straight.

Westerner, Thank you for defending CP so well... if you need backup, or help, you can ask me... I will be on and off of here...

Oo... one more thing. I did notice that someone asked if coaches referred us to IC, and my coach had, as a supplementary resource....

[Cyrus]

I'm pretty much done with the CP debate --- that dead horse is starting to smell. However, I think the side debate on recent high school grads going the test out route is pretty interesting. I'm pretty much in agreement with Publius.

The advantages of being able to earn a degree cheaply and quickly are just as strong a draw to the young as the old. Every year not in school is a year you can be bringing in a real salary, and you can be earning a salary without a ton of debt sitting over your head. I also agree with his assertion that earning a BS or BA a couple years quicker than grads with whom you are competing can be an asset instead of liability in terms of finding a job. If I were hiring an entry level position, I'd be pretty impressed with an 18 or 19 year old kid who has already earned a bachelors. This goes doubly for an intern position where I have little risk in trying him out for a couple months. The way I see it is not so much that he is knocking the traditional student down (as someone else stated), but he is setting himself a apart by proving that he can accomplish a goal (earn a degree) faster and cheaper than other students. [As a side note, I actually am quite impressed with Publius. I thought he was much older. He writes and argues his position very well.]

When I really was 18 (it was a while ago) I joined the Army, because I pretty much hated school. Plus, I wanted to be a computer programmer, and I was able to get a guarantee from the Army that they would train me as a programmer. I also believed that having 4 years experience working as a computer programmer in the Army would give me an edge over people who only had degrees. I was absolutely right. The Army trained me to be a programmer; I did the exact same job as Army civilian programmers; I was just was paid a lot less than the civilian programmers. Four years later, when I got out of the Army, I had no problem finding a job, because I had lots of experience and plenty of people to use as references. It was the smartest thing I ever did.

If I were doing it all over again today, I would start testing out of college courses while I was still in high school. I'd do everything I could to earn my BS while I was still in high school. Then after I graduated I would go into the service as an officer this time around, but I'd probably go into the Navy, and I'd probably make it a career (officers make decent money and have great retirement benefits).

This kind of career appeals to me, but I'm sure it doesn't appeal to everyone. However, even if I had other career aspirations, I'd still take advantage of testing out as much as possible. If I were going for a STEM field I would try to find a college that would accept an AA or AS from one of the Big 3 so that I could get my real degree a couple years early. If I were trying to get into Med school or a big name grad school, I still might even do the Big 3 test out route followed by a year long Post Bacc program at a state university. If I were in high school and trying to get into Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, or Yale then I'd still be taking advantage of CBEs to help me standout against my peers.

People 18 and younger have used CP and gotten their Bachelors, and gone on.
Yes... the army was a good way to do it and get experience, but that is not an option. That funding has been cut so that we can supply Muslims in Egypt with American Military Aircraft... something is wrong there but I wont go into that....
With CP, and the internships and job shadowing that they get you into, you get the same experience, and have the same cutting edge, as well as being able to get into the work force faster than others going through traditional college routes... hey don't get me wrong. I know and look up to several people who are doing the traditional route, and graduating well, and have a job right off... but I also know people who waste money on college, studying this and that until they find something they like, and make it through college with their degree...

[Jonathan Whatley]

Yes... the army was a good way to do it and get experience, but that is not an option. That funding has been cut so that we can supply Muslims in Egypt with American Military Aircraft... something is wrong there but I wont go into that....

I call false. A has not happened because of B. From ProPublica:

Military aid [to Egypt] — which comes through a funding stream known as Foreign Military Financing — has held steady at about $1.3 billion since 1987. American officials have long argued that the money promotes strong ties between the American and Egyptian militaries, which gives the U.S. all kinds of benefits. U.S. Navy warships, for instance, get "expedited processing" when they pass through the Suez Canal.

F.A.Q. on U.S. Aid to Egypt: Where Does the Money Go—And Who Decides How It’s Spent? (Marian Wang and Theodoric Meyer, ProPublica, October 9, 2012)

Is there some other other funding envelope that's been increased, despite a revolution in Egypt and sequester in the U.S.? This seems unlikely. It seems U.S. military support to Egypt has maintained a dollar level set by the Reagan Administration. Economic aid to Egypt appears to have been reduced substantially.

Also, you cast doubt on military cooperation with "Muslims?" While constitutionally secular, over 97% of the population of Turkey is Muslim. Turkey has been a U.S. ally in NATO, where an attack on one is an attack on all, since 1952. Apparently there are 90 U.S. nuclear weapons stationed in Turkey today. That's pretty close!

Also, the Army is no longer training programmers?

[Daithi]

I call false. [snip]

Also, the Army is no longer training programmers?

I call false as well. @Cyrus, the military is still a great option. Trust me, the military hasn't stopped hiring. @Jonathan Whatley, when I was in the service there was a programmer/analyst 74F MOS (military occupation specialty). That MOS no longer exists. It has been replaced with a more generic 25B MOS that still trains soldiers to work with computers, but it isn't limited to just programming anymore. You may be setting up computer networks, or programming, or just doing PC maintenance. However, it is still a decent MOS, and there are lots of other MOSes that provide absolutely great experience. There are military jobs in electronics, aviation, business admin (operations, logistics, accounting, etc.), and healthcare just to name a few. So, someone without a college degree can still get experience in a variety of fields through the military. However, I'm advocating getting a bachelors degree first then going in as an officer. @Whoever, several years of experience is still far more valuable than just a degree. Plus, a guy in uniform has a decent chance with Muslim girls.