Shocker - Common Core not giving good outcomes

[dfrecore]

https://www.westernjournal.com/years-com...g-results/

Any of you with kids dealing with common core knew that this was not a good plan.

[suzycupcake]

I always kid that 3rd grade common core math made me an alcoholic :p


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[quigongene]

I'm pretty good at doing math in my head. As much s**t as CC catches, after I read up on it, it's very close to the methodology I use.

[12save]

One of the "good" things about Common Core was that students would be taught different ways of solving math problems and choose which one worked for them.  OK, sounds fine.  However, in practice, the students had to turn in work which required them to use all of the different ways of solving math problems.  The great idea of having students choose which way(s) worked best for them was shoot to pieces since they were required to do math problems using all solution methods.  The way in which math is taught in Common Core is different from what its stated goal(s) are.   

The reading scores going down is puzzling because Common Core requires different types of reading (fiction and non-fiction).  As a former secondary English teacher who has also been a substitute teacher later in life, I found the math part of Common Core the most troubling.  However, as someone who taught English in every grade from 6-12, the reading materials and instruction methodology for Common Core appear to be fine to me (as one who taught decades before Common Core existed).

The math instruction in Common Core is confusing, but the reading instruction uses acceptable methodologies.  With the drop in reading scores, something else must be going on than just Common Core.  The drop in math scores totally makes sense to me as a substitute who has had to teach math up to Algebra 1 as a sub who has used the materials.

[PrettyFlyforaChiGuy]

Reading through the few actual studies on learning outcomes, a common refrain seems to be teachers feeling unprepared to teach due to substandard training. I'd suspect that would lead to some trouble down the line.

[dfrecore]

Reading through the few actual studies on learning outcomes, a common refrain seems to be teachers feeling unprepared to teach due to substandard training. I'd suspect that would lead to some trouble down the line.

You seriously have to try to help your kid with math to figure out what the problem is.  I've known math and engineering majors who couldn't help their 3rd graders with their math homework.  They were completely lost.  If that doesn't tell you there's a problem, I don't know what does.

In addition to poor teacher training, it's completely unrealistic - not at all developmentally appropriate for the different ages/stages of kids they're teaching to.  In the years when you're supposed to have kids learn the memorizable stuff (multiplication and addition tables for instance, when kids' brains are in the "parroting" stage), they are teaching them the "why" of math - the kids aren't there yet, and can't fathom what'd going on.  During the "why" phase for kids, they have them parroting.  It's just not based on science, or developmental psychology, or anything.  It's a disaster.

[indigoshuffle]

Reading through the few actual studies on learning outcomes, a common refrain seems to be teachers feeling unprepared to teach due to substandard training. I'd suspect that would lead to some trouble down the line.

You seriously have to try to help your kid with math to figure out what the problem is.  I've known math and engineering majors who couldn't help their 3rd graders with their math homework.  They were completely lost.  If that doesn't tell you there's a problem, I don't know what does.

In addition to poor teacher training, it's completely unrealistic - not at all developmentally appropriate for the different ages/stages of kids they're teaching to.  In the years when you're supposed to have kids learn the memorizable stuff (multiplication and addition tables for instance, when kids' brains are in the "parroting" stage), they are teaching them the "why" of math - the kids aren't there yet, and can't fathom what'd going on.  During the "why" phase for kids, they have them parroting.  It's just not based on science, or developmental psychology, or anything.  It's a disaster.

You hit the nail on the head... which is why I'm a big fan of Jean Piaget. If you introduce kids to concepts too early it will hurt them and they will be discouraged. 

In my very humble opinion, kids in middle school and the first 2 years of high school should be focusing on high yield, memorizable stuff. They should be learning how to take notes. They should be learning how to read a paragraph or book and strain out the high yield info. They should have the multiplication table memorized up to 15.
There is also another factor here... Chinese parents have a different way with their children and they don't let up until the learning is learned. American kids are very soft (I'm sorry but it what I've observed). 
American kids have many things to distract them, video games, television, Netflix, and other non sense. This is why GM and Ford have stopped making sedans in this country, and why Honda and Toyota have crushed the United States. We cry about our border, but how can we protect the border when we can't even place our kids in these high level jobs? CEOs are having to get kids from India and China and Japan. It's not just because their labor is cheaper, ITS BECAUSE THEY PASS CALCULUS IN THE 10TH GRADE WHILE OUR KIDS ARE ON THE XBOX. We play too much with our kids' education, then blame others for coming here and taking jobs that our kids couldn't do if you held a gun to their heads. We yell at our kids for results, but we don't sit with them and tutor them. I wrote another post somewhere on this forum about seeing the CULTURE of education when I walk into the home of one of my Japanese, Chinese or indian friends' home. How can we compete with that?

As you can obviously see, my family is not from the US, but the weakness of the educational system is very apparent by foreigners who have a few years of grade school in other countries. Now they're talking about privatizing our schools, and making profits off the back of American children? This country is losing a war by putting all of it's resources in the wrong type of weapons. More money for bombs, military budget, etc... but not wanting to spend more money to reinforce our most powerful weapon, the minds of our children. I'm sorry this became political, I really am.

[PrettyFlyforaChiGuy]

Reading through the few actual studies on learning outcomes, a common refrain seems to be teachers feeling unprepared to teach due to substandard training. I'd suspect that would lead to some trouble down the line.

There is also another factor here... Chinese parents have a different way with their children and they don't let up until the learning is learned. American kids are very soft (I'm sorry but it what I've observed). 

American kids have many things to distract them, video games, television, Netflix, and other non sense. This is why GM and Ford have stopped making sedans in this country, and why Honda and Toyota have crushed the United States... CEOs are having to get kids from India and China and Japan. It's not just because their labor is cheaper, ITS BECAUSE THEY PASS CALCULUS IN THE 10TH GRADE WHILE OUR KIDS ARE ON THE XBOX... We yell at our kids for results, but we don't sit with them and tutor them. I wrote another post somewhere on this forum about seeing the CULTURE of education when I walk into the home of one of my Japanese, Chinese or indian friends' home.

I very strongly agree with your "culture of education" idea, but I am a college admissions counselor in China now, working directly with the tip of the top students in Beijing; the ones who get admitted to Ivies and regard Top 30 schools as safeties. While I've helped many Ivy-bound students express themselves and find their unique voices, even within this sample, if you were to walk around group workshops designed to show them how to format their independent research projects for publication, you would also find some students secreting away their cell phones under their desk to play games on the down-low.

Basically, children will find distractions to vent the stresses of their education, no matter who they are or where they are. Anecdotally, I remember long hours playing PlayStation games as a child, and turned into a decent enough first-gen college grad who churned out research. I don't see this as a convenient scapegoat you can really wag a finger at. Also, it's certainly true that some of my Chinese clients have independently passed AP Calculus AB in the 10th grade, but many have not. In the USA, many such courses and opportunities simply aren't made available in every district--like they weren't in my own--due to uniquely ignorant ideas like tying funding to testing outcomes and property taxes. 

It's also true that 800s on the SAT Math section are the norm for STEM-oriented students here in Beijing. However, these results are likely biased in favor of self-selection, similar to how Middle American states tend to have the highest SAT scores--the test isn't common in these places, so the most motivated students sit for them. My clients generally have little idea how to express themselves, their dreams, or their research in a way that could allow them to fit into any team, much less demonstrate deep reflection into their proposed field of study. They simply lack some of the self-expression and teamwork skills that Americans may take for granted, because their system isn't necessarily geared toward these outcomes.

Aside from counseling, I've also been the head of teaching departments in international schools around Asia; I did teach critical literary analysis to the age group you referenced, but it was using American textbooks that resembled those from my own childhood. The skills of identifying themes, pinning down an author's tone, and exploring implicit ideas aren't removed from those I learned at a similar age, half a world away.

I think you are very right to identify a community of education in many families in these cultures. It's absolutely not the case that all Chinese parents know how to best support their child's education, or even become directly involved at all. However, the culture of education is strong, likely because the students are surrounded by resources like college counselors and respected teachers who can help know them individually and respect their unique needs. Then again, I've worked with many hands-off parents, who I simply shepherd through the international admissions process and consult for input.

Most importantly, though, these families also have the funds to pursue higher education, which is often considered beyond the reach of many Americans. I've found that even on this forum, one that intends to democratize access to higher education, posting opinions about universal education or student loan forgiveness is met with refrains similar to "I've already got mine." It presents a really remarkable dichotomy for me, but that's politicizing a topic, too... but allowing children to know that they can identify their dreams, rise up toward them, and then make them secure in the knowledge that they'll have financial and emotional access to them when they're ready seems to be a pretty consistent thread in all the swath of Asian cultures I've directly served in.

[bluebooger]

You hit the nail on the head... which is why I'm a big fan of Jean Piaget. If you introduce kids to concepts too early it will hurt them and they will be discouraged. 

In my very humble opinion, kids in middle school and the first 2 years of high school should be focusing on high yield, memorizable stuff. They should be learning how to take notes. They should be learning how to read a paragraph or book and strain out the high yield info. They should have the multiplication table memorized up to 15.
There is also another factor here... Chinese parents have a different way with their children and they don't let up until the learning is learned. American kids are very soft (I'm sorry but it what I've observed). 
American kids have many things to distract them, video games, television, Netflix, and other non sense. This is why GM and Ford have stopped making sedans in this country, and why Honda and Toyota have crushed the United States. We cry about our border, but how can we protect the border when we can't even place our kids in these high level jobs? CEOs are having to get kids from India and China and Japan. It's not just because their labor is cheaper, ITS BECAUSE THEY PASS CALCULUS IN THE 10TH GRADE WHILE OUR KIDS ARE ON THE XBOX. We play too much with our kids' education, then blame others for coming here and taking jobs that our kids couldn't do if you held a gun to their heads. We yell at our kids for results, but we don't sit with them and tutor them. I wrote another post somewhere on this forum about seeing the CULTURE of education when I walk into the home of one of my Japanese, Chinese or indian friends' home. How can we compete with that?

As you can obviously see, my family is not from the US, but the weakness of the educational system is very apparent by foreigners who have a few years of grade school in other countries. Now they're talking about privatizing our schools, and making profits off the back of American children? This country is losing a war by putting all of it's resources in the wrong type of weapons. More money for bombs, military budget, etc... but not wanting to spend more money to reinforce our most powerful weapon, the minds of our children. I'm sorry this became political, I really am.

here in NYC we've got the mayor trying to get rid of gifted high schools because the schools don't reflect the population of NYC students -- they don't have enough spanish and african american students 

and if the schools are kept then they need to get rid of standardized tests for admission and come up with a different admission criteria (like top 10% from each middle school)

the Asian parents are going nuts because this new policy will keep many of the highest scoring asian students out of the gifted schools 

the dept of ed is holding meetings to discuss the issue , but the schedule the meetings far away from asian neighborhoods, and in small rooms and provide no translators for the parents

even some minority leaders are against the idea -- they want minority kinds IN gifted programs -- they don't want the gifted programs down away with

[dfrecore]

Most importantly, though, these families also have the funds to pursue higher education, which is often considered beyond the reach of many Americans. I've found that even on this forum, one that intends to democratize access to higher education, posting opinions about universal education or student loan forgiveness is met with refrains similar to "I've already got mine." It presents a really remarkable dichotomy for me, but that's politicizing a topic, too... 

So, first, since you don't live here, you won't be paying for the degrees of anyone, so it's kind of hard to take this seriously from you.

BUT, if we were to forgive ALL $1.5 Trillion in student loans right now, that would mean that everyone, including poor and middle-class taxpayers, and including people who already paid for their own college (or chose not to go) would be paying for people who chose to go somewhere they maybe couldn't afford.  I know LOTS of people who are struggling to pay their own way through college, or for their kids college, or who went to community college first, to avoid student loans.  LOTS of people who worked 2-3 jobs to pay their way through college (or for their kids' college).  You're telling everyone who does NOT have college debt, that they need to pay for those that do, even if those people had other options, and chose to go the debt way instead.  You're telling everyone who paid off their own debt, that they're now paying for everyone else's debt.

Also, this doesn't address the problem of the cost of college, which is just about 100% of the problem right now.  Colleges have been on a spending spree for 30-40 years.  They build bigger, nicer dorms (granite counters, hard-wood floors, private bathrooms, walk-in closets).  Have better food (weekly lobster dinners or an on-campus steakhouse).  And better amenities (lazy rivers, climbing walls, free ice-cream) than you could ever imagine.  Professors are paid more to teach less.  Spending is out of control, and it's not on professors or other necessary people.  It's in administration, with an ever-increasing salaries paid to and ever-increasing number of deans and professional staffers.  The costs balloon on an annual basis, and there is no reason for schools to watch the bottom line.  If you were to pay off everyone's student loans today, many of those students would go get another student loan for next year's tuition.  AND, if students thought we'd be doing this again, MORE students would choose to get a student loan in the hopes that they'd be paid off the next time around.  That means students who previously considered working, or going to CC for 2 years, or choosing a less expensive school to avoid debt, would have no reason to do any of this.  Instead, they'd choose the most expensive school, or their "dream school" or go out-of-state, because they'd know there was no reason to be prudent.

Let's let the market take care of this, which we are already seeing - many families are seeing the student loan crisis and saying "no thanks" and sending their kids to CC first, kids are taking gap years to save up money, students are choosing trade schools, students are choosing less expensive options, etc.  The market WILL take care of this problem if we let it.  But paying for everyone who made bad decisions is NOT going to make people make better decisions in the future.