Possible Issue with UK Level 8 Diplomas

[sarahmac]

In short, UK Level 8 Diploma programs all have a possible progression chart, you can't really deviate from that progression list. You can try to go for alternatives that may be cheaper, easier, faster, have better ROI/Value, or to personalize your learning further, but that's only if you can find alternatives, the only one that's possible are DBA related programs.  Here's an example of using OTHM Level 8 Diploma.

University of Gloucestershire
OTHM Level 8 Diploma in Strategic Management and Leadership Practice
Entry onto: Doctor in Business Administration DBA

I wouldn't go this route as the DBA from Gloucestershire is going to cost over $40K alone, as the DBA is much more expensive than doing the UK Level 8 and laddering to a degree from Athabasca U, Baker College, Westcliff DBA, or even ladder to a Walden PhD in Management Completion program if any of these accept the UK Level 8 for transfer.

The highlighted/bold part was my point BJ. I can't find any affordable RA US based doctorate programs in leadership or management that will accept a Level 8 for transfer... NA schools sure... except that NA programs are a red flag for those of us wanting to go into academia full time...
BJ, do you or anyone else KNOW for a fact of any (affordable) US based RA schools with a doctorate in management or leadership that will accept a UK Level 8 either for ABD purposes, or that will at least provide a sizable number of transfer credits. I don't doubt they exist... I know you have been a big proponent of them for years, I just haven't found them.
Just a bit discouraged by the number of RA universities that won't accept it for transfer credit due to considering it a "completed" program.

Level 8 Diplomas are not for people who want to *do* academia. 

The UK has a dual vocational academic system. Level 3 instead of A Levels (equiv to community college), Level 4 instead of HNC, Level 5 instead of a HND, Level 6 instead of a Bachelors, Level 7 instead of a Masters etc.

At multiple progression points people can top-up their vocational studies via e.g. a top-up Masters or top-up degree, but these are not intended to suddenly convert your whole education from the vocational system into the academic one. They're typically for professionals, acquired by professionals, and used by professionals in their vocational field. As an example, a common Level 8 top-up is a DBA. This is not the same thing as a PhD in Business or Management, and you cannot suddenly start applying for post-docs with it. 

Some people who are business leaders with lots of experience and a DBA may be invited as guest lecturers to come give an applied class at a business school for a term (closest US equiv is adjunct), but that is absolutely not the same thing as being a full time academic whose main job is research, supervising masters students and undergrads etc.

Expecting US institutions to treat the Level 8 as equivalent to full-time *academic* coursework, when the UK doesn't even do that, is frankly the longest shot I've seen. 

Globally we're also facing one of the worst academic job markets in recent years too. This past round has been frankly appalling and nobody is expecting it to get better any time soon. You're crippling yourself before you even start if you don't aim for at least a mid-tier program (who are unlikely to accept your Level 8 as anything more than a boost to your applicant profile). But also, decent programs pay you. It's a job, not just "being a student". Not always well paid, but you'd be better off using the money you're intending to spend to augment whatever you're paid for a couple years.

Again, all that only matters because you state your goal is academia. Nothing stopping you using the Level 8 to ABD at a paid-for program aimed at professionals. That is always an option, and a good one if industry is your ultimate goal.

[FireMedic_Philosopher]

In short, UK Level 8 Diploma programs all have a possible progression chart, you can't really deviate from that progression list. You can try to go for alternatives that may be cheaper, easier, faster, have better ROI/Value, or to personalize your learning further, but that's only if you can find alternatives, the only one that's possible are DBA related programs.  Here's an example of using OTHM Level 8 Diploma.

University of Gloucestershire
OTHM Level 8 Diploma in Strategic Management and Leadership Practice
Entry onto: Doctor in Business Administration DBA

I wouldn't go this route as the DBA from Gloucestershire is going to cost over $40K alone, as the DBA is much more expensive than doing the UK Level 8 and laddering to a degree from Athabasca U, Baker College, Westcliff DBA, or even ladder to a Walden PhD in Management Completion program if any of these accept the UK Level 8 for transfer.

The highlighted/bold part was my point BJ. I can't find any affordable RA US based doctorate programs in leadership or management that will accept a Level 8 for transfer... NA schools sure... except that NA programs are a red flag for those of us wanting to go into academia full time...
BJ, do you or anyone else KNOW for a fact of any (affordable) US based RA schools with a doctorate in management or leadership that will accept a UK Level 8 either for ABD purposes, or that will at least provide a sizable number of transfer credits. I don't doubt they exist... I know you have been a big proponent of them for years, I just haven't found them.
Just a bit discouraged by the number of RA universities that won't accept it for transfer credit due to considering it a "completed" program.

Level 8 Diplomas are not for people who want to *do* academia. 

The UK has a dual vocational academic system. Level 3 instead of A Levels (equiv to community college), Level 4 instead of HNC, Level 5 instead of a HND, Level 6 instead of a Bachelors, Level 7 instead of a Masters etc.

At multiple progression points people can top-up their vocational studies via e.g. a top-up Masters or top-up degree, but these are not intended to suddenly convert your whole education from the vocational system into the academic one. They're typically for professionals, acquired by professionals, and used by professionals in their vocational field. As an example, a common Level 8 top-up is a DBA. This is not the same thing as a PhD in Business or Management, and you cannot suddenly start applying for post-docs with it. 

Some people who are business leaders with lots of experience and a DBA may be invited as guest lecturers to come give an applied class at a business school for a term (closest US equiv is adjunct), but that is absolutely not the same thing as being a full time academic whose main job is research, supervising masters students and undergrads etc.

Expecting US institutions to treat the Level 8 as equivalent to full-time *academic* coursework, when the UK doesn't even do that, is frankly the longest shot I've seen. 

Globally we're also facing one of the worst academic job markets in recent years too. This past round has been frankly appalling and nobody is expecting it to get better any time soon. You're crippling yourself before you even start if you don't aim for at least a mid-tier program (who are unlikely to accept your Level 8 as anything more than a boost to your applicant profile). But also, decent programs pay you. It's a job, not just "being a student". Not always well paid, but you'd be better off using the money you're intending to spend to augment whatever you're paid for a couple years.

Again, all that only matters because you state your goal is academia. Nothing stopping you using the Level 8 to ABD at a paid-for program aimed at professionals. That is always an option, and a good one if industry is your ultimate goal.

Unfortunately no. I have absolutely no experience or actual interest in business. Getting a tenured position in academia (homeland security /national defense/ public policy) is my sole goal. The only reason I looked into the UK lvl 8 at all was that BJ and some others suggested it would be a large source of transfer credits into a US based PhD.

[lincolnlawyer]

In short, UK Level 8 Diploma programs all have a possible progression chart, you can't really deviate from that progression list. You can try to go for alternatives that may be cheaper, easier, faster, have better ROI/Value, or to personalize your learning further, but that's only if you can find alternatives, the only one that's possible are DBA related programs.  Here's an example of using OTHM Level 8 Diploma.

University of Gloucestershire
OTHM Level 8 Diploma in Strategic Management and Leadership Practice
Entry onto: Doctor in Business Administration DBA

I wouldn't go this route as the DBA from Gloucestershire is going to cost over $40K alone, as the DBA is much more expensive than doing the UK Level 8 and laddering to a degree from Athabasca U, Baker College, Westcliff DBA, or even ladder to a Walden PhD in Management Completion program if any of these accept the UK Level 8 for transfer.

The highlighted/bold part was my point BJ. I can't find any affordable RA US based doctorate programs in leadership or management that will accept a Level 8 for transfer... NA schools sure... except that NA programs are a red flag for those of us wanting to go into academia full time...
BJ, do you or anyone else KNOW for a fact of any (affordable) US based RA schools with a doctorate in management or leadership that will accept a UK Level 8 either for ABD purposes, or that will at least provide a sizable number of transfer credits. I don't doubt they exist... I know you have been a big proponent of them for years, I just haven't found them.
Just a bit discouraged by the number of RA universities that won't accept it for transfer credit due to considering it a "completed" program.

Level 8 Diplomas are not for people who want to *do* academia. 

The UK has a dual vocational academic system. Level 3 instead of A Levels (equiv to community college), Level 4 instead of HNC, Level 5 instead of a HND, Level 6 instead of a Bachelors, Level 7 instead of a Masters etc.

At multiple progression points people can top-up their vocational studies via e.g. a top-up Masters or top-up degree, but these are not intended to suddenly convert your whole education from the vocational system into the academic one. They're typically for professionals, acquired by professionals, and used by professionals in their vocational field. As an example, a common Level 8 top-up is a DBA. This is not the same thing as a PhD in Business or Management, and you cannot suddenly start applying for post-docs with it. 

Some people who are business leaders with lots of experience and a DBA may be invited as guest lecturers to come give an applied class at a business school for a term (closest US equiv is adjunct), but that is absolutely not the same thing as being a full time academic whose main job is research, supervising masters students and undergrads etc.

Expecting US institutions to treat the Level 8 as equivalent to full-time *academic* coursework, when the UK doesn't even do that, is frankly the longest shot I've seen. 

Globally we're also facing one of the worst academic job markets in recent years too. This past round has been frankly appalling and nobody is expecting it to get better any time soon. You're crippling yourself before you even start if you don't aim for at least a mid-tier program (who are unlikely to accept your Level 8 as anything more than a boost to your applicant profile). But also, decent programs pay you. It's a job, not just "being a student". Not always well paid, but you'd be better off using the money you're intending to spend to augment whatever you're paid for a couple years.

Again, all that only matters because you state your goal is academia. Nothing stopping you using the Level 8 to ABD at a paid-for program aimed at professionals. That is always an option, and a good one if industry is your ultimate goal.

I agree that the level 8 and its top-up options are not meant for academia, at least not in the West. 

The irony here is that a master's degree topped up from a level 7 diploma would qualify as prerequisite for entering a PhD program.

[newdegree]

In short, UK Level 8 Diploma programs all have a possible progression chart, you can't really deviate from that progression list. You can try to go for alternatives that may be cheaper, easier, faster, have better ROI/Value, or to personalize your learning further, but that's only if you can find alternatives, the only one that's possible are DBA related programs.  Here's an example of using OTHM Level 8 Diploma.

University of Gloucestershire
OTHM Level 8 Diploma in Strategic Management and Leadership Practice
Entry onto: Doctor in Business Administration DBA

I wouldn't go this route as the DBA from Gloucestershire is going to cost over $40K alone, as the DBA is much more expensive than doing the UK Level 8 and laddering to a degree from Athabasca U, Baker College, Westcliff DBA, or even ladder to a Walden PhD in Management Completion program if any of these accept the UK Level 8 for transfer.

The highlighted/bold part was my point BJ. I can't find any affordable RA US based doctorate programs in leadership or management that will accept a Level 8 for transfer... NA schools sure... except that NA programs are a red flag for those of us wanting to go into academia full time...
BJ, do you or anyone else KNOW for a fact of any (affordable) US based RA schools with a doctorate in management or leadership that will accept a UK Level 8 either for ABD purposes, or that will at least provide a sizable number of transfer credits. I don't doubt they exist... I know you have been a big proponent of them for years, I just haven't found them.
Just a bit discouraged by the number of RA universities that won't accept it for transfer credit due to considering it a "completed" program.

Level 8 Diplomas are not for people who want to *do* academia. 

The UK has a dual vocational academic system. Level 3 instead of A Levels (equiv to community college), Level 4 instead of HNC, Level 5 instead of a HND, Level 6 instead of a Bachelors, Level 7 instead of a Masters etc.

At multiple progression points people can top-up their vocational studies via e.g. a top-up Masters or top-up degree, but these are not intended to suddenly convert your whole education from the vocational system into the academic one. They're typically for professionals, acquired by professionals, and used by professionals in their vocational field. As an example, a common Level 8 top-up is a DBA. This is not the same thing as a PhD in Business or Management, and you cannot suddenly start applying for post-docs with it. 

Some people who are business leaders with lots of experience and a DBA may be invited as guest lecturers to come give an applied class at a business school for a term (closest US equiv is adjunct), but that is absolutely not the same thing as being a full time academic whose main job is research, supervising masters students and undergrads etc.

Expecting US institutions to treat the Level 8 as equivalent to full-time *academic* coursework, when the UK doesn't even do that, is frankly the longest shot I've seen. 

Globally we're also facing one of the worst academic job markets in recent years too. This past round has been frankly appalling and nobody is expecting it to get better any time soon. You're crippling yourself before you even start if you don't aim for at least a mid-tier program (who are unlikely to accept your Level 8 as anything more than a boost to your applicant profile). But also, decent programs pay you. It's a job, not just "being a student". Not always well paid, but you'd be better off using the money you're intending to spend to augment whatever you're paid for a couple years.

Again, all that only matters because you state your goal is academia. Nothing stopping you using the Level 8 to ABD at a paid-for program aimed at professionals. That is always an option, and a good one if industry is your ultimate goal.

Unfortunately no. I have absolutely no experience or actual interest in business. Getting a tenured position in academia (homeland security /national defense/ public policy) is my sole goal. The only reason I looked into the UK lvl 8 at all was that BJ and some others suggested it would be a large source of transfer credits into a US based PhD.

Have you looked at Liberty University's PhD in Public Policy, PhD in National Security, or Doctor of Public Policy? Liberty University accepts 50% of transfer credits, so it might be possible to get that level 8 diploma evaluated, and maybe they will count it toward their program. You can also get your master's degrees and certificates assessed for possible credits, which might count toward the degree if applicable. They also offer a first responders discount. 
Another option that's not so affordable but interesting is St. Johns University's Doctor of Profesional Studies in Homeland Security 
https://www.stjohns.edu/academics/progra...al-studies

[joshuaissac]

https://capitalcollege.ae/courses/doctor...ation-dba/

Have you looked at this offer?

I looked for DBA/PHD Top-up degrees in developed countries a while back. While a DBA might not be ideal for academia, this is nontheless a regionally accredited doctorate degree from an American university (Westcliff University).

Through this provider, it is offered as a pathway including the Level 8 diploma at a good price.

Red flag for me Sir...

On the page the link sent me to, they claim to be located in California USA, but that the courses are taught by an English university. However another page indicates they are located in the Middle East.

I don't see anything that is obviously problematic about this. The institution offering this is based in the UAE. The course consists of two parts, a Level 8 diploma from a UK institution, followed by a DBA from a US institution. The UAE institution provides the packaging and the marketing. I have not vetted any of the institutions involved but I don't see any inconsistency in what they are saying.

[FireMedic_Philosopher]

Have you looked at Liberty University's PhD in Public Policy, PhD in National Security, or Doctor of Public Policy? Liberty University accepts 50% of transfer credits, so it might be possible to get that level 8 diploma evaluated, and maybe they will count it toward their program. You can also get your master's degrees and certificates assessed for possible credits, which might count toward the degree if applicable. They also offer a first responders discount. 
Another option that's not so affordable but interesting is St. Johns University's Doctor of Profesional Studies in Homeland Security 
https://www.stjohns.edu/academics/progra...al-studies

Liberty was actually one of the first programs I looked at... Also, in case you didn't already know, Liberty requires that for transfer credit to count, it has to be at the level of the program being pursued. 

In other words, only bachelor's level classes count towards a bachelor's, only master's courses count towards a master's, and so on. They will not accept any master's degree or master's level courses for transfer into a doctorate. They do offer a few "executive certificate" programs made up of doctorate level courses that can transfer in, however they explicitly forbid any discount to be used by certificate students. That means that they are too far out of my price range.

[newdegree]

Have you looked at Liberty University's PhD in Public Policy, PhD in National Security, or Doctor of Public Policy? Liberty University accepts 50% of transfer credits, so it might be possible to get that level 8 diploma evaluated, and maybe they will count it toward their program. You can also get your master's degrees and certificates assessed for possible credits, which might count toward the degree if applicable. They also offer a first responders discount. 
Another option that's not so affordable but interesting is St. Johns University's Doctor of Profesional Studies in Homeland Security 
https://www.stjohns.edu/academics/progra...al-studies

Liberty was actually one of the first programs I looked at... Also, in case you didn't already know, Liberty requires that for transfer credit to count, it has to be at the level of the program being pursued. 

In other words, only bachelor's level classes count towards a bachelor's, only master's courses count towards a master's, and so on. They will not accept any master's degree or master's level courses for transfer into a doctorate. They do offer a few "executive certificate" programs made up of doctorate level courses that can transfer in, however they explicitly forbid any discount to be used by certificate students. That means that they are too far out of my price range.

Have you tried the university of the cumberlands phd in leadership or EdD in leadership? I know they count masters credits towards their doctorates