Opinions about online education changing

[Prloko]

Here is an interesting article from a professor in my Online MBA program. He is teaching his course while biking cross country. He has some real interesting insights on online education.

Online education is losing its stigma. Of course, for every two steps it takes forward, some unscrupulous for-profit launches it a step back.

A Life (and Classroom) Well-Traveled

[sanantone]

The sad part is that the worst for-profits have been ripping students off long before online degree programs existed. And, a lot of the overpriced, vo-tech schools that are accredited by ACICS or ACCSC either have less ground students than online students or no online students at all. These days, when people think of for-profits, they think of online schools. Before University of Phoenix saw dramatic decreases in enrollment, they had more ground students than online students. Many people think of ITT Tech as an online school, but their thing was hands-on training.

[Prloko]

The sad part is that the worst for-profits have been ripping students off long before online degree programs existed. And, a lot of the overpriced, vo-tech schools that are accredited by ACICS or ACCSC either have less ground students than online students or no online students at all. These days, when people think of for-profits, they think of online schools. Before University of Phoenix saw dramatic decreases in enrollment, they had more ground students than online students. Many people think of ITT Tech as an online school, but their thing was hands-on training.

ITT Tech, DeVry and Kaplan used to actually be pretty respectable organizations. Especially DeVry. They were huge in the tech ed arena until they decided to go into the online bachelor degree field. There is still one in New York that has stayed small and is still respectable (TCI). They provide associates and still have good relationships with local businesses and provide excellent placement and internships.

I wish we would go back to those times when a technical education (career school or CC) led to respectable job prospects, rather than the president going on television telling everyone to go to college.

[sanantone]

ITT Tech, DeVry and Kaplan used to actually be pretty respectable organizations. Especially DeVry. They were huge in the tech ed arena until they decided to go into the online bachelor degree field. There is still one in New York that has stayed small and is still respectable (TCI). They provide associates and still have good relationships with local businesses and provide excellent placement and internships.

I wish we would go back to those times when a technical education (career school or CC) led to respectable job prospects, rather than the president going on television telling everyone to go to college.

The Internet only made these places more well-known, thus, spreading their reputations to the masses. In the 90s, I remember Devry being seen as a joke due to all the commercials on television. ITT Tech's biggest scam was its loan program, which had nothing to do with its online programs. ITT Tech charged way beyond the student loan limit, so students either had to come up with several thousand out of pocket or take out a loan with the school. I mentioned this in a couple of other threads on this forum and the other. When students took out a no interest loan, they were not told that it had to be paid back in 12 months. When the loan became due, the students obviously didn't have the money to pay off the balance, so the school gave them the option of moving the balance to a high interest loan. IIRC, the interest rate was 14 or 15%.

When you watch daytime television with shows such as Maury and Jerry Springer offshoots, you usually see commercials for vo-tech schools with programs that require hands-on training such as medical assisting. They target economically disadvantaged, single mothers and unemployed or underemployed men. They have always been 10X or more the cost of local community colleges. They have always had admissions reps who were sales people that would call prospective students repeatedly until they enrolled. They target students who either don't know how to navigate the system and apply for financial aid and admission to a community college, students who need day cares and more flexible schedules, or students who are placed into remedial courses at community colleges or can't pass their courses.

When I taught at a nationally accredited for-profit (its online division was very new and small), I got to see how these types of schools work from the inside. Several of the instructors talked about their experiences at other for-profits with vo-tech programs. Most of them do the same things and attract the same types of students. Paying $20,000 for a one-year medical assisting program to get a job that pays $13 an hour has been happening for a long time. I posted a thread a month or two back about a NPR story that explained how the welfare-to-work program steered a lot of single mothers to these vo-tech programs.

[clep3705]

I wish I could find the clip from the Roseanne show where they talked about getting an education from DeVry.

[bluebooger]

There was a new "animated" comedy on Fox this evening -- Son of Zorn

it has some funny stuff on online education

[Prloko]

The Internet only made these places more well-known, thus, spreading their reputations to the masses. In the 90s, I remember Devry being seen as a joke due to all the commercials on television. ITT Tech's biggest scam was its loan program, which had nothing to do with its online programs. ITT Tech charged way beyond the student loan limit, so students either had to come up with several thousand out of pocket or take out a loan with the school. I mentioned this in a couple of other threads on this forum and the other. When students took out a no interest loan, they were not told that it had to be paid back in 12 months. When the loan became due, the students obviously didn't have the money to pay off the balance, so the school gave them the option of moving the balance to a high interest loan. IIRC, the interest rate was 14 or 15%.

When you watch daytime television with shows such as Maury and Jerry Springer offshoots, you usually see commercials for vo-tech schools with programs that require hands-on training such as medical assisting. They target economically disadvantaged, single mothers and unemployed or underemployed men. They have always been 10X or more the cost of local community colleges. They have always had admissions reps who were sales people that would call prospective students repeatedly until they enrolled. They target students who either don't know how to navigate the system and apply for financial aid and admission to a community college, students who need day cares and more flexible schedules, or students who are placed into remedial courses at community colleges or can't pass their courses.

When I taught at a nationally accredited for-profit (its online division was very new and small), I got to see how these types of schools work from the inside. Several of the instructors talked about their experiences at other for-profits with vo-tech programs. Most of them do the same things and attract the same types of students. Paying $20,000 for a one-year medical assisting program to get a job that pays $13 an hour has been happening for a long time. I posted a thread a month or two back about a NPR story that explained how the welfare-to-work program steered a lot of single mothers to these vo-tech programs.

Although many of your points have validity, especially in today's environment, I disagree with the outcomes pre-dot.com boom. I knew many people personally who went to these vo-tech schools and flourished. Many of these schools actually had good equipment, instructors from the industry and a solid job placement program. They produced work ready employees. Of course, things have changed, but that doesn't diminish the fact that vocational schools provided a valuable service at one time and most community colleges then and now have poor job placement assistance. Even now, with many of the laws that came out, Community Colleges are still not required to report their job placement numbers. You may be paying less in $, but could be paying huge in opportunity cost. Again, the nature of votech schools have changed, and finding good ones now are like finding a proverbial "needle in the haystack". And speaking of paying $20K for a $13 p/h job, I have family members who blew $80k at a prestigious school to be a waiter.

I still say bring back and embrace vocational education. There is honor, skill and dignity in being a welder, electrician, HVAC tech, medical assistant, paralegal, help desk operator, etc. Lets stop with this notion that people need to waste away in a cubicle in order to be considered successful. In fact, bring back apprenticeships, and let our youth earn their bones.

[Laura27282]

One of the appeals of the for-profit route for welfare/underemployed/receiving unemployment folks is/was the speed. For instance you mentioned medical assisting. For programs like medical assisting/nursing/dental hygiene or most anything medical the community colleges require prerequisites and a wait list. You take a year or so worth of pre reqs and then wait for a slot to open. And the community college I went to required you to be state licensed nurse assistant with a number of hours practicing before you enter the RN or LPN program. That is a lot of hoops for nontraditional students. But honestly I see the state's point too- more hoops to jump through will equal higher sucess rates and better health care workers.

I ended up doing both nurse assistant and phlebotomy at the cc. There are a few hoops to jump through- entrance exam, interview, and mandatory orientation classes to attend. But no wait lists or reqs. My phlebotomy training led to a job that started out at $14.50. I realized that is what medical assistants start out as in this area. I'm glad to took a one semester pbt class instead an associate degree program. :/

What I don't understand is why you would go to ITT or something similar and do like a Criminal Justice or Business Admin. associate degree. The same program, no wait list, is offered at the cc. I had a close friend go to ITT and I still don't understand. Other than they did seem to be more helpful streamlining her grants and everything. She came out of foster care so she was entitled to college at the state's expense, but ITT costs exceeded those grants (and she had previously used some on art school). So still, the community college would have been the better choice.

And I agree about community colleges and job placement. The job placement center in my cc was a room with computers, a board with ads and fax machine you could use at no cost to you. If you are a current student. It was geared towards finding students part time work at places like UPS. Not towards helping recent grads.

Someone on here said Kaplan was charging nearly $800 per credit hour. If that is true, I don't know how that is not greed.

[sanantone]

Although many of your points have validity, especially in today's environment, I disagree with the outcomes pre-dot.com boom. I knew many people personally who went to these vo-tech schools and flourished. Many of these schools actually had good equipment, instructors from the industry and a solid job placement program. They produced work ready employees. Of course, things have changed, but that doesn't diminish the fact that vocational schools provided a valuable service at one time and most community colleges then and now have poor job placement assistance. Even now, with many of the laws that came out, Community Colleges are still not required to report their job placement numbers. You may be paying less in $, but could be paying huge in opportunity cost. Again, the nature of votech schools have changed, and finding good ones now are like finding a proverbial "needle in the haystack". And speaking of paying $20K for a $13 p/h job, I have family members who blew $80k at a prestigious school to be a waiter.

I still say bring back and embrace vocational education. There is honor, skill and dignity in being a welder, electrician, HVAC tech, medical assistant, paralegal, help desk operator, etc. Lets stop with this notion that people need to waste away in a cubicle in order to be considered successful. In fact, bring back apprenticeships, and let our youth earn their bones.

Let me search for the article. I remember a study that found that CC graduates make more than for-profit graduates of comparable programs.

[ladylearner]

Let me search for the article. I remember a study that found that CC graduates make more than for-profit graduates of comparable programs.

I NEED this article. I hope you're able to find it. I've been trying to spread the word since I discovered this forum. But now that word has gotten out that I'm getting my degree with no student loans, people in my circle are listening to me a little bit more.