Northern Arizona University Launches Competency-Based Online Degree Program

[Yanji]

Yanji, you obviously know what you're talking about. Just wanted to make a minor correction to your post. UCSD got AACSB accreditation in 2011. University of California, San Diego Earns AACSB International Accreditation

Thanks for the correction. I'll edit my post accordingly. You Californians are obviously more up to date on UCSD than I am!

Thanks for the info about UMass ,that actually sealed the deal for me.Do you thing they would take a BALS from TESC?

They'll take anything regionally accredited, so I don't see why they wouldn't accept a general BA from TESC. It's not open admissions but I'm sure you won't have any issues.

[Daithi]

Irene from NAU just called me a few minutes ago and I spoke with her about the CIT program at NAU. I have a feeling she thinks I'm some kind of crank, because she had asked how many credits I have and I told her a little over 60 something credits. So she says, so you have about another 2 years to go before you graduate. I said, oh no, I'll be finished probably in the first quarter of 2014. I don't think she believed me, and she went into a "humor the wacko" mode.

In any event, I did get an answer to the question I posted on the forum here. If I get my degree from TESC they will accept it whole and will not do a credit-by-credit evaluation. I will still need to complete the language requirement of 16 credits. They do grant 16 credits for the Spanish CLEP on a score of 68+. They'll also accept the CLEP exam, even if the courses in my TESC degree puts me over NAU's CLEP limits when viewed credit-by-credit. However, this is still something I'd like to see in writing before shelling out any money to NAU.

[sanantone]

The funny thing is that I got this kind of response from a COSC advisor. I applied to all of the Big 3 around January or February of 2011. I told my advisor that I was switching to TESC because of the difficulty of getting UL credits. The psychology ECEs were expensive at the time. Since TESC and COSC awarded me the same number of credits, he told me I was a couple of years away from completing a degree anyway. I had about 70 credits and finished by August or September of 2011.

[brajalle]

I received answers to many of the questions I had asked today, and will be receiving a follow-up which should be helpful to anyone considering NAU. I'm very grateful for the time and the open discussion I had with Rebecca about the program.

I think there is a real danger in assuming that NAU's PL program, in regards to coursework & credit hours, works exactly like the Big Three and most other schools. I mean, I have spent the last few weeks reading, in great depth, their website and anything I can find talking about their program in articles & grant proposals, but I did not really grasp exactly what the "deconstructed the courses" thing they were talking about meant until I talked to Rebecca today.

In brief, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In this case, I found a rivet. That's not bad, in fact, I came away thinking it was a net positive. I'm talking about their competency model and how their courses/tasks work. More just below as I summarize what I got answers on.

1. NAU's PL program is competency based. Yes you've read about it, I've read about it, but what is difficult to grasp in just reading about it, is that they have DECONSTRUCTED many of the traditional college courses (English, Sociology, History), and created say (I'm giving a totally made-up example), 8 competency tasks that must be learned/demonstrated before you would meet this requirement. The courses are all integrated, you may be doing a paper based on a topic in Sociology's history for example (completely made-up example).

1a. What this means for people on this forum -
- You can transfer and receive credit for CBE exams (and transfer credit), but in the above (made-up) example, if you only transferred in English and Sociology, you would still have to complete all 8 competency tasks (although they should be easier).
- Since there are no CBE options for the Major or the Minor, this is not a problem there. For the Language requirement, there is a CBE option. This is only a problem with the General Ed requirements.
- You are able to meet individual course requirements, ie - MATH115 is "stand-alone", or maybe the blocks in whole.

SUMMARY - CBE or transfer credits may not remove tasks/requirements in their system for General Ed requirements

2. They have a built-in CBE option. You can pass the pre-test for a B for most competencies (I'm guessing you won't be able to for a handful). You can then challenge for an A. If you fail the pre-test, it will tell you what you need to study in the material - you study that, and you can re-take the test at anytime, rinse & repeat until you pass. It's basically like ALEKS guys.

SUMMARY - Their pre-test/pass system works sorta like ALEKS from what I understand. Ie they have a built-in CBE option for most of the degree (not for the internship for example).

3. ACE Credits & National Credits - It was hinted at in their material, but they are pretty open about Nationally-accredited coursework. They still want to see that it was not some worthless course, but they are not limited to Regional only. As far as ACE credits, at this time, it is, as suspected, Millitary-specific, ie, nothing that we're aware of. May change in the future.

SUMMARY - No ACE (ie Straighterline, ALEKS), Nationally accredited coursework - give it a shot.

4. Transfer Credits - 64 credits from 2 year schools, 90 credits from 4 year schools, 30 credit (opps, they call them units!) residency.

5. Financial Aid - Check back around the end of the year. 529 - not sure, need to check with Financial Aid.

6. How Semesters Work - Unlike WGU, there are no requirement for completing a certain number of courses by the end of the semester - they don't care at all (other than it's your money). For financial aid reasons, you may need to kick it up a notch, they will help you select tasks that will appear on your semester transcript to allow you to meet attendance requirements. You can take time off between semesters, up to 18 months, your tasks will remain frozen, although, I'm guessing this is not a good idea (especially for loan reasons or attending another college).

7. Internship - They can work to place you, but as most students are working adults, this is typically something involving your workplace, as appropriate (you may not be able to do IT stuff at McDonalds for example).

8. New Majors - Currently evaluating, it's a long process.

9. NAU Transcripts - They talk about you receiving two transcripts. One is a competency transcript, with more details, etc - it is hoped that this might better help future employers evaluate what you may have learned and what real skills you have achieved. The other is a traditional transcript. As discussed, they combine the competency tasks into individual courses. I'm not entirely sure how this works with Mastery challenges.

10. Mastery Challenges for an A - Not a ton of info here, it does not sound like it is a cake-walk, as it is intended to reflect academic rigorousness, but they also don't have data yet, as the program has only been live for six weeks. It will be adjusted if appropriate. What I'm also not sure about, is how this will work with constructing your transcript from the competency tasks. Is there a Mastery for each task? Or only for a group of tasks? How do you end up with an A in English for example given the (made-up) example above? Not sure...

11. General Ed Courses - There is a breakdown (in other posts I've made and on their site) of the general ed requirements and how they break down into categories. Due to the nature of how they deconstruct the competencies required, there is a SET (ie you cannot pick courses to meet requirements within their task system) list of courses that will appear on your transcript (discussed in #9 above). This isn't on their website, I'll do a follow-up when I receive this list. What I'm trying to say is that you can't pick from 5 courses in order to meet their CU (Cultural Understanding) requirement, you complete the competencies related to this and it is reconstructed onto your (traditional) transcript as something like 2 courses worth 3 credit hours with names and codes/etc.


CONCLUSION -

- I need to aggregate all of the information so far into a more comprehensive format, instead of it being spread out, and correct for any wrong info.
- I am hopeful of obtaining more information, on the courses that are in their General Ed task system (see #11 above), and on how those courses are possibly grouped together. This is likely critical for the community to evaluate if CBE is going to be helpful at NAU.

If we can get their groupings, it might be possible to do a better plot of a possible plan that involves CBE. Right now it looks like you can meet all or most of their language requirement by CLEP, you can meet their Minor requirement only through an Associates, and you may be able to meet parts or most of their General Ed requirements (I'm talking about in a way that fulfills groupings, as described in #1 above). You will have to complete at least some General Ed requirements and the Major at NAU. Given their cost ($2,500 for 6 months of access), this is not a huge financial burden, especially given that they give you the option to earn a B with a pre-test, and their system functions similarly to ALEKS (of course, they may require papers and such, I'm talking the mechanics).

So far today, I'm left with the following impression -

- This is the best option I've seen if you want a substantial amount of grades on your transcript & you are a person who swears by exam/competency evaluation.
- I'm not entirely sure how useful the CLEP credits may be in meeting General Ed requirements until I get a follow-up email, I suspect that there will be a chunk of CBE that will fit in, but how much is not known yet. My personal opinion, after the conversation, was that it doesn't matter a ton with how their pre-test model is constructed. I think it may only be helpful in terms of very slow students (ie for cost reasons) or for students looking to meet Minor requirements with an Associates (where it may make sense to try to meet as many General Ed requirements as possible).
- There are obvious benefits to the CBE model, there are also obvious potential downsides to a degree that is mostly CBE. This could include being somewhat weak in terms of writing and in upper level coursework, besides the general - what is up with your transcript? - issues. The PL option at NAU has the potential to address any actual or perceived issues in these areas.
- Pre-testing (built-in CBE) and a model similar to ALEKS (alert - may require writing, I'm talking the learning/evaluation model) for a B? At my own pace (finish in a semester or not?) - nifty!

I'll do a follow-up once I get more information, and try to aggregate all the information in one place. It should then be possible to present any CBE or Associates @ COSU -> NAU (or similar) options that may make sense.

Hope this helps some people! Neat program, I'm really leaning towards saying no to TESC and enrolling at NAU.

[mrs.b]

I stand corrected, to a point, on the AACSB accreditation. I've been researching ranked MAcc programs offered entirely online, as well as CPA requirements for my own use (I know, it's an odd match with my undergrad, but it's a good match for my career path). Many of the MAcc programs I've looked at waive GMAT or make some other kind of accommodation if an undergrad business or accounting degree comes from an AACSB-accredited school. Likewise, AACSB accreditation features prominently in my state's CPA licensing requirements to spare extra hoops to jump.

It was in my mind due to my own searches, so I was not as specific as I should have been. And yes, confirmation that the SBA degree is offered by the accredited business school is a big question. I have my undergrad already, so I'm not going to take that time or waste theirs just for curiosity's sake, but it is one that actual interested degree seekers may want to put on the list if considering NAU.

That clarification made, I do still think the NAU program looks like a really nice fast-track option that could potentially save someone money with sights on competitive graduate schools, and I still wish it were offered back when I was in the stage of picking a school. Setting the AACSB accreditation aside, many of the prestigious graduate MBA and MAcc programs do have GPA requirements for a certain number of credits, which holders of degrees composed of CBE alone (or one course for a GPA) may find difficult to meet without really strong interview and self-selling skills.

[sanantone]

I like the idea that you get grades as opposed to WGU's programs, but I just don't like how they go about determining grades.

[KenJ]

Since this is my first post, I'll do a quick intro. I've been lurking here for awhile and I used to post on the "other" forum a few years back. I try to keep up with what's new with alternative-type education. Anyway, NAU's new program has caught my eye. As far as education goes, I received my BS from Regents College back in 1987 and my transcripts and diploma read "The University of the State of New York", not Regents or Excelsior, so I can see how that would confuse some people. Between CLEP's, ACTPEP(now ECE, I believe), ACE credits and the Sociology GRE, I earned a boatload of credits. I had an AS almost complete before I entered the service, but didn't use that many of them in my final transcript . Now to NAU.

I e-mailed them my unofficial transcript and the first response was basically, they want to see my transcripts from other schools I attended, and how did I get a degree if I never took any classes at the school I attended. Also, getting 30 credits for sociology without a breakdown of credits seemed to be a concern. I'm not saying anything bad about the process, as I always get the same questions whenever anybody sees my transcripts, so I'm just giving people here a heads up about it.

I'm in correspondence with the school at the moment and I'll update as I go along. My next steps are to call the school to clarify my transcript and I'm in the process of getting transcripts from a school I last attended in 1980.

[Rebecca-NAU]

Hi Daithi,

Thanks so much for your questions. This forum is amazing and will be very helpul in knowing what prospective students want to see as they are exploring options.

I think the best way to make sure we are answering your questions and taking your specific circumstances into consideration is to work with us directly. To get started, I would recommend going to nau.edu/personalized, starting a profile, and downloading the packet (if you haven't already done so). This would also give us an opportunity to talk about how Personalized Learning students can test out of lessons while in the program. This aspect of Personalized Learning may alleviate some of your concerns.

I'll continue to monitor the forum to make sure correct information is out there. I hope that's helpful to everyone. We hope to hear from you soon!

Thank you again--to you and your fellow degree forum participants!

A few questions for Rebecca if she is still reading this forum.

I am interested in the CIT degree from NAU. I do not currently have a degree, but I do have over 25 years experience as a software developer. One option would be for me to enroll in NAU and begin your program, but I already have a lot of non-traditional credits (CLEP, DSST, ACE, etc). So, my plan is to just finish the rest of the testing I need to get my BA in Liberal Studies from Thomas Edison State College (TESC). I should be done around Christmas or Q1 of 2014.

The NAU Personalized Learning Info Packet from your website says, However, the testing to earn the TESC degree would put me way over your Credit By Exams limits. Will this be a problem or would the degree from TESC be treated as a whole and not analyzed credit-by-credit? Also, if it isn't a problem, would this mean that I would only need to meet the language requirements and also the major requirements for the CIT degree? Lastly, in regards to the language requirement, which would be the best way to handle this requirement?

1) Take the Spanish CLEP as part of earning my TESC degree and try to get a 68 or more. This gives me 12 credits at TESC, but NAU counts 68+ as 16 credits and NAU requires 16 language credits. (Or, would NAU only see this as 12 credits because this was what TESC granted in the degree?)

2) Don't take the CLEP as part of earning my TESC degree. Instead, take the Spanish CLEP after I've earned my degree. This ensures that if I get 68+ then I get credit for 16 credits. (Or would this not work because my TESC degree already put me well over your Credit By Exams limits?)

[ncimfabulous]

Brajalle thank you so much for all the information i've been calling and could not get any of the information that you've just listed. Since the program is so new nobody really knows how it's going to function or specific but you've claified alot of information for me. My next question is how do you apply,where do you send transcripts ie. extended campus?

Example for you, I have 90+ traditional credits, most meeting the general education requirements but your saying that the CBE may still be required for classes even if they transfer in and you have say a B in the class. They also will not take straighterline courses but will Penn Foster courses be accepted?

[brajalle]

Brajalle thank you so much for all the information i've been calling and could not get any of the information that you've just listed. Since the program is so new nobody really knows how it's going to function or specific but you've claified alot of information for me. My next question is how do you apply,where do you send transcripts ie. extended campus?

Example for you, I have 90+ traditional credits, most meeting the general education requirements but your saying that the CBE may still be required for classes even if they transfer in and you have say a B in the class. They also will not take straighterline courses but will Penn Foster courses be accepted?

I'm assuming that the PL website has a direct application link with instructions on where to send transcripts. I've actually not looked that closely, I've been focused on information gathering!

As far as your credits, I received the chart I'd hoped for regarding meeting the general ed requirements, but I had a few (minor) questions that I need to clarify before I'm comfortable doing a definite how-to and tweaking the chart for people to use on our forum (like you). It's hard to explain without a visual to look at, but in their general ed requirements there are around 8-11 competencies. A few are stand-alone (Math115, the English requirement, 3 units of the CU), and one (the other 3 units of the CU requirement) may be integrated in another area (the Spanish language area - not sure). The other 7 competencies and the courses they are taken from, are sort of intermixed.

Basically, you have to approach it from two angles instead of the usual one angle. The usual angle is - do I meet the area requirement (ie 6 credits of English or 12 credits in Humanities). The second angle in NAU's program is competency based - if I transfer X, Y, Z courses in, will I be meeting ALL of the requirements to fulfill Competency #1? If you don't meet all the requirements for Competency #1, then you'll still have to complete all of it, even if you've transferred in credit that meets the requirements for 80% of it. The chart, once I clarify it, will hopefully answer those sort of questions.

To summarize though, if you can meet all the requirements for the non-Math, English, and CU areas in the General Ed requirements (ie as I laid out over 2 posts on Pg.3), then you will meet all the requirements for the 7 related competencies. If you can meet the Math and English requirements, then you've got 2 more. If you have some form of CU related credits, then they may meet that requirement (there are no CBE options available for those though). At least, so far as I can tell.

- No ACE, sorta a shame, but I understand.
- Penn Foster I believe is Nationally accredited, they will review the courses for acceptance, no guarantees, they said they're pretty permissive about credit sources, but they don't want to make guarantees when the courses may not be rigorous enough. The only way to know is for people to transfer in and to build a list of what has been accepted.
- Because there aren't CBE options for Major/Minor options, I've not focused on how those courses are deconstructed into competencies, but you may need to realize that if you transfer in 90 credits that fit perfectly into the 120 required for a degree, that you may have more than the expected 25% of the competencies left to complete (ie see the two-angle approach I discussed above). But like I said, these courses appear to have a built-in pre-test component that is pretty much a CBE for a B option, so I'm not sure it's the end of the world compared to non-competency based programs.

I also forgot a tidbit about the Mastery challenge for an A. It was mentioned that there might be various options - ie you can select an option that may best fit you. I'm not sure if all of them have multiple options, or if I heard incorrectly, but it sounded neat. It was mentioned that in the IT area one of the Mastery options was a certification (which you may already hold, or can test for). So it may not just be, turn in an extra paper for an A, or a take an extra test for an A, it may be - pick your choice of 2, 3, or 4 options. Not 100% sure, but that's what it sounded like.

Also, here is the list of General Ed courses that you will be taking if you don't try to meet any requirements by Xfer or CBE. This is what will appear on your transcript, and these are the courses that are deconstructed-

Liberal Studies
STAT 271- SAS
PHSI 102L, Everyday Physical Science- LAB
HUMA 121, The Act of Meaning- Making- AHI
HUMA 372, Ethics, Values, and Technology- AHI
SPAN 102- CU
HIST 232, Islamic Culture Since 1500-CUG
CSTU 366, Communication and Social Movements- SPW
COMU 302, Stereoptypes and the Media -SPWE
HUMA 377, Utopias and Dystopias- Liberal Studies Elective

I have to ask about the course titles for Stat 271 (Stat 270 is Applied Statistics (which is AP Stats fyi), Stat 272 is from the SBA Major), and for SPAN 102. None of the courses above appear in their course catalog, and the list isn't on their website - I'm guessing it will be, it's very much a work in progress. I'm assuming SPAN 102 is likely some sort of spanish or hispanic culture course, and if so, this may explain why it does not appear on my chart - it could be intermixed in the language option with their spanish courses. All courses are 3 units except the L suffix, which is a 4 unit course (ie with a lab). These are the courses that are deconstructed into 8 competencies (well Span102 isn't on the chart, it would be a 9th).

As far as the courses they selected, it's actually (IMO) a nice mix of liberal arts designed to hopefully help a student think and be able to logically look at the modern world. The only apparent outlier is the modern Islamic culture course. It makes sense if you think about it - there are two major culture spheres that impact US students and that they would benefit from having academic exposure to - internal foreign cultures (ie usually immigrant or large distinct internal cultures) and external foreign cultures (ie ones with large world impact in some manner). In that context, having a default selection of a course related to Hispanic/Latino culture in the US/Western Hemisphere is 100% obvious from an internal perspective. Also in that context, given the sheer size of Islam as a world religion, our own history, and our own culture's reaction (especially since 2001) it makes perfect sense to include that as a course as well from an external perspective. The only possible alternative courses I can think of are some sort of Asian culture studies (Asian immigrants surpassed Hispanic a few years ago for example) or Chinese/Indian specific coursework. I think these are weaker choices to the ones selected, but I think it may be nice to have some more options as time progresses (the Islamic Culture course is it's own competency, so it would be easy to do). All in all, I think they made some excellent course picks, probably much better (in terms of rounding/thinking) than most college students would pick on their own, and it's really cool to have them packaged in a competency based option. For the student on this forum, it may be an opportunity to experience some coursework a bit different from the usual CBE fare, while not suffering from many of the drawbacks of traditional classes.