New from Harvard Extension School

[posabsolute]

lol @armstrongsubero

Rarely things are perfect, and we should debate those. What you just said brought nothing, "the guy is better than you, therefore, you have nothing to say" wow, a nice argument from authority here.. Furthermore, it's not because someone has vision that the execution holds true, and even rarer it holds true over a century, that's why people/company/school evolve the way they do things.

You seem to be the one burn here that some of us don't agree 100% with you.

[sanantone]

I'm one class away from completing my ALM, with two grad certs from HES and just recently accepted a new position.  Just a couple of things to say on it.

I've had exactly three interviews, with two offers, 2 of them asked specifically about my HES (applicant) status. Specifically they asked me about my education, and I started to talk about undergrad, then my MBA and mentioned I was completing another masters degree.  Both specifically asked about the harvard applicant and I discussed a bit about the extension school.  Reception was positive, but it could be my distance from Cambridge (i'm in the southeast), or it could be that I downplayed the harvard name by emphasizing my work experience.  Difficult to say, but 2/3 from interview to offer (I declined to continue the process with the 3rd due to salary..) has not been common at my level (Director) previously.  Previously I've also never been asked about education (its at the bottom of my resume), now it comes up almost every time I speak with a recruiter/interview.

This discussion has been rehashed a number of times and everyone seems to have an opinion.  Here's mine after completing 12 classes:  

• It was worth every penny for the quality of education I received.  My professors were leaders in their field and they pushed me to learn.
  
• I'm a nerd, but the library access is phenomenal and a huge benefit I hadn't considered previously.
  
• The Harvard brand may be diluted by the extension label, but I haven't seen it and don't care.  I'm not competing for top level investment banker gigs and don't need that level of recognition.
  
• It was expensive, but I've taken extra classes that don't go towards my credential because the tuition in relation to the value is cheap
  

I'm not arguing that HES will have a negative reception. I'm arguing that it won't have the same reception as other Harvard schools. My degree from the unranked Angelo State University has received positive comments. People were more interested in what I studied than where I studied. Just being in the process of working on a PhD at a state university has gotten me many positive comments and a lot of "wows" during interviews. My PhD is at a Top 30 criminology school, but no one outside of academia knows that. Criminal justice professionals in Texas just know that Texas State University has a popular criminal justice program. I am learning from leaders in my field. Where the leaders are is program-specific, not university-specific. One of my professors has written the most popular criminal justice ethics textbook in the country, and she's often called by police departments nationwide when they're having ethics issues. One of the professors in the program is famous worldwide for creating a popular theory in criminology. Another professor has been asked to consult on TV shows and was asked to work on a serial killer case in Europe. He helped solve that case. Texas State University is not expensive. 

I've always put my education at the top.

[armstrongsubero]

@sanantone as did you Harvard Grad? how was your time at Harvard Law and Harvard College? Ms. President of Harvard? Is your thesis on using quaternions to treat quadrics? How did you find your time as an MIT trustee? You can't step in his shoes.

I'll be literal here, no I did not say anything about Jeff Bezos. Did I talk about Jeff Bezos? I was talking about Harvard Extension and college education. Jeff Bezos has nothing to do with this, please keep the context relevant.

The man had vision and started something that blossomed into a glorious tree. It started by him planting the acorn (granting associates) and now it's a mighty oak tree (Harvard grants masters).

HES built on what he started. He planted the seeds and he planted a tree for Americans like yourself to sit in the shade and by extension anyone who wants to visit the garden.

It takes uppity people to get things done. They have the power, they have the money, they have the resources to implement their vision.

You know I'm right, you just have too much pride to admit you're wrong. It's not a scarlet letter, its not a fake school, and it's not a sub par education. It just burns you that ordinary people can go to Harvard.

If you like, then don't go. I'll be waiting for you to finish your HBS MBA at Harvard. Won't be holding my breath.

In the mean time I'll be congratulating mednat on his ALM at Harvard. Well done man! One class away from being a HARVARD graduate! Make sure and buy a HARVARD CLASS RING, treat yourself to an 18k ring too. Oh and visit the HARVARD MUSEUMS and HARVARD libraries that your HARVARD STUDENT ID CARD give you access too. and not that you need it but they also give HARVARD student services to you since you are a HARVARD student.

I go that information at the HARVARD extension school website that lists HARVARD in the domain.

https://www.extension.harvard.edu/degree-privileges

Oh look HARVARD.edu.

mednat is almost a HARVARD grad sanantone and he's also getting his PhD next year. Guess thats one smart fellow, I won't dobut it. He is a HARVARD man.

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@posabsolute I know :-) . It wasn't meant to be 100% serious. Some of you do bring good points, I just think HES is such a good idea for all the hate it's getting.

[mednat]

I'm not arguing that HES will have a negative reception. I'm arguing that it won't have the same reception as other Harvard schools. My degree from the unranked Angelo State University has received positive comments. People were more interested in what I studied than where I studied. Just being in the process of working on a PhD at a state university has gotten me many positive comments and a lot of "wows" during interviews. My PhD is at a Top 30 criminology school, but no one outside of academia knows that. Criminal justice professionals in Texas just know that Texas State University has a popular criminal justice program. I am learning from leaders in my field. Where the leaders are is program-specific, not university-specific. One of my professors has written the most popular criminal justice ethics textbook in the country, and she's often called by police departments nationwide when they're having ethics issues. One of the professors in the program is famous worldwide for creating a popular theory in criminology. Another professor has been asked to consult on TV shows and was asked to work on a serial killer case in Europe. He helped solve that case. Texas State University is not expensive. 

I've always put my education at the top.

I'm actually not arguing anything, so I don't think we're in disagreement?  I was sharing my experience for others to use as they will. If it somehow reinforces your thoughts, that's great!  My goal was not to change hearts and minds or market my program or school.

I'm not really sure how your experience relates to mine, I may have missed something here.  I work in the private-sector, and in my industry/field education after over a decade of work experience just doesn't normally come up (other than if it's missing..) in the conversation.  The third interview that I opted not to continue the process was for a higher ed. institution and I expect for education to be discussed in this industry, but it's really pretty rare in business unless the applicant has no work experience (other than to discuss football...).  

I put education at the bottom of my resume, because at my current level hiring managers are usually concerned with results I've delivered.  Most CEOs want to know the size of budgets I've managed, money I've saved, and size of the teams I've managed.   I don't always advise others to do the same, but if you were applying for a job in my industry, with my experience and my work history -- i'd say put it at the bottom.

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@sanantone as did you Harvard Grad? how was your time at Harvard Law and Harvard College? Ms. President of Harvard? Is your thesis on using quaternions to treat quadrics? How did you find your time as an MIT trustee? You can't step in his shoes.

I'll be literal here, no I did not say anything about Jeff Bezos. Did I talk about Jeff Bezos? I was talking about Harvard Extension and college education. Jeff Bezos has nothing to do with this, please keep the context relevant.

The man had vision and started something that blossomed into a glorious tree. It started by him planting the acorn (granting associates) and now it's a mighty oak tree (Harvard grants masters).

HES built on what he started. He planted the seeds and he planted a tree for Americans like yourself to sit in the shade and by extension anyone who wants to visit the garden.

It takes uppity people to get things done. They have the power, they have the money, they have the resources to implement their vision.

You know I'm right, you just have too much pride to admit you're wrong. It's not a scarlet letter, its not a fake school, and it's not a sub par education. It just burns you that ordinary people can go to Harvard.

If you like, then don't go. I'll be waiting for you to finish your HBS MBA at Harvard. Won't be holding my breath.

In the mean time I'll be congratulating mednat on his ALM at Harvard. Well done man! One class away from being a HARVARD graduate! Make sure and buy a HARVARD CLASS RING, treat yourself to an 18k ring too. Oh and visit the HARVARD MUSEUMS and HARVARD libraries that your HARVARD STUDENT ID CARD give you access too. and not that you need it but they also give HARVARD student services to you since you are a HARVARD student.

I go that information at the HARVARD extension school website that lists HARVARD in the domain.

https://www.extension.harvard.edu/degree-privileges

Oh look HARVARD.edu.

mednat is almost a HARVARD grad sanantone and he's also getting his PhD next year. Guess thats one smart fellow, I won't dobut it. He is a HARVARD man.

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@posabsolute I know :-) . It wasn't meant to be 100% serious. Some of you do bring good points, I just think HES is such a good idea for all the hate it's getting.

Thank you armstrong!  Most of my education at this point is for self-gratification and I must say HES fit the bill for what I wanted.  I will add, regardless of the origin of the HES program , I love the mission of the school.  From my point of view it is reinforced at every level of the program.

[sanantone]

In 2016 a group of Extension students organized a Degree Change Initiative. Their focus this time wasn’t the names of the school or the liberal arts titles of the degrees, but the suffix that appears on diplomas “in Extension Studies.”

The Dean of HES and the Division of Continuing Education, Hunt Lambert, spoke to a group of students who shared an excerpt to Facebook video.

“I acknowledge that the names of our degrees are inconsistent with our peers. They’re not terribly descriptive of what the programs actually are.”

“But what I have to deal with inside Harvard is respecting that names are sacred. When we chose ‘Extension Studies’ in the 1909–1910 timeframe we were the Commission on Extension Studies. You have to realize that was eight years before the federal legislation that created the agricultural extensions at the land grant universities… And so they took our name…”

“And then when we were given our degree names, the board, Harvard Corporation as it’s called here, thought very hard. What they said is, ‘We need to be enormously careful in what we call these degrees. Because the Extension School is Harvard, but it’s not Harvard College. The Extension School is Harvard but is not Harvard Business School. The Extension School is Harvard but it’s not Harvard Medical School or Dental or Divinity or Law and go down the list. And each of those schools has unique degree names appropriate to their day. What do we call these degrees? And they made a decision to call it ‘in Extension Studies.’ And… at that time, sacredness was given to those words. And at the level of our Corporation right now, I need to respect that those words are still sacred to them. My predecessor fought for a change in those words for fifteen straight years with no success. And so I have to first go back to the Corporation and say, ‘Why are those words sacred to you? What would it be?’ And we’re working through that. But it’s gonna take time…”


“I’m starting to turn my question around about that and say, maybe we should make ‘in Extension Studies’ mean something. What we can control is to say, this is what it means. It means we extended Harvard to these people. It’s not a substitute. It’s not a replacement. It’s Harvard, but for a different student.

”


“And so we’re gonna look at how we go about changing the names of the degrees, but I’ve also decided we need to look at ‘how do we bring real brand meaning to what our degrees are called?’ Because these words may be sacred at Harvard. And maybe we have to honor those words and don’t get to change the names. In which case it’s incumbent on us in the digital world to bring clearer meaning to what those words mean for the rest of the world.”

“So that’s where I am on the name change.”

Putting "Extension Studies" into a degree name is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. 

You mentioned Penn's BAAS degree. That degree name has been around for a while now at other universities, and it's not designed to differentiate non-traditional students. BAAS degrees were designed to accept a wide variety of transfer credits in applied fields and allow flexibility in designing the degree plan. LPS' other undergraduate program is the BFA which is seen at other institutions. LPS recently stopped offering the on-campus BA degrees, but this was because it was difficult for working adults to attend school on campus, not because Penn wanted to segregate its LPS students. 

Penn's School of Arts and Sciences has three divisions: College of Arts and Sciences, Graduate division, and College of Liberal and Professional Studies (LPS). LPS has a Master of Science in Applied Geosciences and an MPA. Those are typical degree names. They have other professional master's degrees that follow the MPA/MBA format that's becoming more common among various colleges instead of the Master of Science and Master of Arts format: Master of (insert field of study). I have a Master of Security Studies from Angelo State. I think this is appropriate for applied fields such as Master of Social Work. For liberal arts degrees (natural science, mathematics, social science, and humanities) that don't have an applied focus i.e. applied psychology, I believe MS and MA should still be used. I have no idea why anyone would think that Extension Studies is a good idea or even necessary. 

Penn's LPS is a little different from Harvard's Extension School. Penn has earn-your-way admissions for its new BAAS program, but there's no backdoor admissions process for its other programs. For the graduate programs, you have to submit GRE scores. I more often see Penn LPS compared to Columbia SPS. I don't know if this is still true, but Columbia SPS diplomas are in English whereas their other diplomas are in Latin. However, Columbia SPS issues Master of Science degrees. Penn LPS diplomas are exactly like their other School of Arts and Science diplomas. 

Columbia University is a great deal ahead of Penn and Harvard when it comes to online education, though. Columbia has many more 100% online degree programs, and many are not housed in SPS. You can earn entirely online and hybrid degrees directly from the School of Engineering and Applied Science, School of Social Work, and Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. Columbia is far ahead of the other Ivy League schools when it comes to distance education.  

Funding: I haven't really researched the funding available for Columbia SPS. From what I've read, people have had 40% to 80% of their tuition covered at Penn LPS.

[Jonathan Whatley]

@armstrongsubero, I appreciate your passion and I appreciate any passion on behalf of Harvard Extension School. But please don't misrepresent sanantone's position – e.g., "It just burns you that ordinary people can go to Harvard" – and please don't personalize your difference of opinion like this.

Let's support all adult learners. sanantone is one highly accomplished one. More importantly she gives a great deal back in research, advice, and considered opinion.

– Jonathan, who actually was Mr. President of something at Harvard authorized to bear the Harvard Extension name. (A recognized student organization at the school. We did all sorts of co-curricular programming, volunteered in the community, organized social events, etc.)

[sanantone]

@sanantone as did you Harvard Grad? how was your time at Harvard Law and Harvard College? Ms. President of Harvard? Is your thesis on using quaternions to treat quadrics? How did you find your time as an MIT trustee? You can't step in his shoes.

I'll be literal here, no I did not say anything about Jeff Bezos. Did I talk about Jeff Bezos? I was talking about Harvard Extension and college education. Jeff Bezos has nothing to do with this, please keep the context relevant.

The man had vision and started something that blossomed into a glorious tree. It started by him planting the acorn (granting associates) and now it's a mighty oak tree (Harvard grants masters).

HES built on what he started. He planted the seeds and he planted a tree for Americans like yourself to sit in the shade and by extension anyone who wants to visit the garden.

It takes uppity people to get things done. They have the power, they have the money, they have the resources to implement their vision.

You know I'm right, you just have too much pride to admit you're wrong. It's not a scarlet letter, its not a fake school, and it's not a sub par education. It just burns you that ordinary people can go to Harvard.

If you like, then don't go. I'll be waiting for you to finish your HBS MBA at Harvard. Won't be holding my breath.

In the mean time I'll be congratulating mednat on his ALM at Harvard. Well done man! One class away from being a HARVARD graduate! Make sure and buy a HARVARD CLASS RING, treat yourself to an 18k ring too. Oh and visit the HARVARD MUSEUMS and HARVARD libraries that your HARVARD STUDENT ID CARD give you access too. and not that you need it but they also give HARVARD student services to you since you are a HARVARD student.

I go that information at the HARVARD extension school website that lists HARVARD in the domain.

https://www.extension.harvard.edu/degree-privileges

Oh look HARVARD.edu.

mednat is almost a HARVARD grad sanantone and he's also getting his PhD next year. Guess thats one smart fellow, I won't dobut it. He is a HARVARD man.

---

@posabsolute I know :-) . It wasn't meant to be 100% serious. Some of you do bring good points, I just think HES is such a good idea for all the hate it's getting.

I accidentally liked your post. I wish we could undo likes. How come this isn't an option?

Where some former Harvard president went to school in the 1800s is irrelevant to this thread. Your post makes no sense and is written in broken English even though you're a native English speaker. Jeff Bezos was used as a modern comparison to demonstrate how nonsensical your argument was. I guess you don't understand the concept of analogies. 

The success of an educational program is not measured by the creator's success; it's measured by the success of its students. If you can demonstrate that degree-seeking HES students have high graduation rates, and their earnings are higher than industry averages, then you'd have yourself a good justification for the added costs. The fact that the person who created the school was president of Harvard in the early 1900s is irrelevant to the value of the Extension School. 

Ironically, you praised uppity people for getting things done, but uppity people are the most likely to look down upon HES. 

I don't know that you're right. I know that your argument is ridiculous. You'd have to actually make sense for me to form an opinion of whether you're right or wrong.

[armstrongsubero]

@Jonathan Whatley thanks for the advice. I am aware of her accomplishments and her contributions, which is why I find it strange she of everyone else would hold that position toward the school.

It's odd, which is why I said that, I can't see any good reason why she would make some statements about 'red scarlett' and 'ashamed of non traditional students' and other stuff that really has no merit and seems to me to be driven by emotion rather than reason.

Sanantone I'm sorry if I misrepresented your position, and say what I meant to say which is 'don't let personal emotion cloud your judgement'.Cause some of your statments are can come across aa a bitter opinion.

HES is Harvard it's says so everywhere.

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@sanantone thanks for the like. It was your subconscious :-)

[sanantone]

@armstrongsubero, I appreciate your passion and I appreciate any passion on behalf of Harvard Extension School. But please don't misrepresent sanantone's position – e.g., "It just burns you that ordinary people can go to Harvard" – and please don't personalize your difference of opinion like this.

Let's support all adult learners. sanantone is one highly accomplished one. More importantly she gives a great deal back in research, advice, and considered opinion.

– Jonathan, who actually was Mr. President of something at Harvard authorized to bear the Harvard Extension name. (A recognized student organization at the school. We did all sorts of co-curricular programming, volunteered in the community, organized social events, etc.)

According to Armstrong's logic, since I'm more educated than he is, have earned admission to higher-ranked programs and universities than he has, and probably make more money than he does, I must be the correct one in every debate I have with him.

[armstrongsubero]

And college isn't about getting jobs. Its about giving you an education. Landing the job is up to you.

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@sanantone and according to your logic, you are the correct one on every devate tou have with me, am I wrong?

Since I dont make sense. Lol.