Minimum age for testing and enrollment

[knucyt]

I am certain that some four-year universitites that these kids applied to refused to give credit for AP classes (I would not have made the comment if it was not the case - as stated it is anecdotal, not based on a national survey)- There are 4 yr universities (versus 2 yr colleges) saying that the AP exams are too watered down at this point - I did not ask my friends what their kids scored on the AP exams and so I guess it is possible they refused for that reason alone, but that is not how they presented it. Not all universities accept all AP/CLEP/DANTES - some will only accept certain ones. Some say you have to score a 5 on an AP in order to get credit - when a large portion of AP takers get less than 3 - approx. only 15% score a 3 or higher. However, I also checked with another friend of mine today whose kid is a Junior in HS - my friend is also a Professor at Galludet in DC and has been hearing this from other educators and students.

Ultimately, before kids go thru the workload/stress of studying for and taking AP exams (they could be doing something else instead), they should check with several universities of their choice and see if they will be accepted and if so at what score. In the same way there are some universities that will not publish equivalencies for CLEP/DANTES, saying that it depends on the score and that they evaluate it on a case by case basis...it's all about money for HS, universities, and the whole industry that pushes APs.

[cookderosa]

Ultimately, before kids go thru the workload/stress of studying for and taking AP exams (they could be doing something else instead), they should check with several universities of their choice and see if they will be accepted and if so at what score.
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Of course I agree that you need to do your research on the college you wish to attend and plan accordingly- but I'd bet my toque that any college awarding CLEP credit would absolutely positively 100% award AP credit.

Since I only advise my own kids, I am not suggesting we should agree, but I don't consider studying a poor use of time or an unacceptable stressor.

[cookderosa]

Some say you have to score a 5 on an AP in order to get credit - when a large portion of AP takers get less than 3 - approx. only 15% score a 3 or higher. However, I also checked with another friend of mine today whose kid is a Junior in HS - my friend is also a Professor at Galludet in DC and has been hearing this from other educators and students. >>


I just wanted to add that your professor friend is mistaken. They have an excellent AP policy- accepting and granting credit for all scores of 3 or higher, and INSIDE a major too. Furthermore, they award tons of credit. AP Biology, for example, earns 8 credits (!) as opposed to CLEP's 6. They are very generous, offering much higher credits than CLEP in almost every subject.
Gallaudet University - Undergraduate Admissions

[Farmerboy]

From the many CLEP/ECE/DSST tests you have taken, which tests were the easiest? I want to build his confidence with the easier tests first. Were there any tests which were similar that you were able to take both in one day? If so, which ones did you pair? Do your parents offer any rewards or incentives when you pass any of your tests?

I took Analyzing and Interpreting Lit. as my first test. My next two were US History I & II. However, I am a history nut and really had a lot of backround in the subjects. I never took more than one test a day (although I have done 3 in one week) I was just fried after one! At first I didn't have any incentives but after awhile if I passed mom would take me out to lunch, a special treat for the oldest of 8! They decided not to use negative reinforcement if I failed, I just never had any other option.hilarious

Farmerboy

[knucyt]

Re Gallaudet - I did not say that Gallaudet refuses AP. They do accept APs. What my professor friend said was that the kids she teaches there and the other educators she collaborates with - around the whole DC metro area are reporting issues with AP acceptance at more and more 4 year universities - as seen on the letters the kids receive after applying to colleges.

Secondly, regarding the value of learning -
> I don't consider studying a poor use of time or an unacceptable stressor.>

I did not say that either. My point is that schools (both public and private) benefit when more kids do APs - their status and funding in the case of public schools is directly linked to the number of kids taking APs - the more kids that take APs the more funding the school gets in many jurisdictions). This drives schools to push teachers to teach AP and kids to take AP classes and teaches to the AP exams so that kids pass. Teaching to exams is not necessarily and often is not the same thing as teaching so that kids really learn and think about the material - this is the major complaint that is being made all over the nation by education systems about no child left behind and teachers being required to teach AP when they do not have the level of expertise, resources, or knowledge to do so yet – hence the watering down of AP classes.

I absolutely support learning and studying - for the purpose of learning and expanding minds and creativity - what is at issue is the cost/benefit equation of AP exams for students. When kids either cannot score high enough to get credit or cannot get credit period, then where is the benefit for them? Of course if you don't believe/agree that schools are teaching to tests then I can see your point.

Kids in high school need balance between studies and other life expanding/learning activities in order to grow into their full potential as human beings. I am not saying that all kids (especially not home schooled kids who can have a much different learning environment) are stressed about getting 4 or 5's on APs, but given the competition for colleges (and I can tell you several stories about the University of MD and in-state kids with 3.85-4.0 GPAs and 4 APs not getting in) it is necessary to weigh the pros and cons of preparing for APs and SATs and what kids give up and what they get in return. Don't get me started on SATs either....a flawed test that exists and is changed to create money for big business not to help our kids learn.

Check this out http://www.tce.umd.edu/apchart.html:

Univ. MD does accept MANY APs but only does so with a number of caveats about equivalencies and scores - e.g., there are a number of APs that cannot be applied to an equivalent class to meet certain major requirements - so even if you do AP Microeconomics for example and your Major is Economics and you need to do Introductory Microeconomics for your major, you will not get credit for taking AP Microeconomics in your major area, only AP Macroeconomics (assuming you did Macro and not Micro AP). So you will have to redo Introductory Microeconomics - you will not have saved any time or money with this AP. Or take the Micro CLEP that they will give credit for in your major or core requirements - however as things change all the time it is necessary to make sure that they will accept an AP Macro and a CLEP Micro and not either or... Also note that "Any new exams offered after February 15, 2003 may or may not be evaluated by the appropriate department"…no eval = no credit.

Which was my whole point - IF students are taking AP exams to save time and money in college (which is often how it is sold to parents and kids - especially "average" kids - those in the 50-80 percentile) they will run into issues with credit at 4 year universities. IF students are only taking AP classes because they are so bright that anything less would not be challenging enough then maybe - if the subject is taught for real learning purposes NOT just test taking results - and that depends on the school's philosophy and funding status on AP exams.

Don't get me wrong - I strongly believe high schools and middle schools need to raise the bar as to the quality and level of education our kids receive - and if you get a knowledgeable teacher who is qualified to teach AP courses then kids will be able to really learn and think about the material, otherwise you are just taking tests that may or may not get you credit.

[cookderosa]

Re Gallaudet - I did not say that Gallaudet refuses AP. They do accept APs. What my professor friend said was that the kids she teaches there and the other educators she collaborates with - around the whole DC metro area are reporting issues with AP acceptance at more and more 4 year universities - as seen on the letters the kids receive after applying to colleges.

Secondly, regarding the value of learning -
> I don't consider studying a poor use of time or an unacceptable stressor.>

I did not say that either. My point is that schools (both public and private) benefit when more kids do APs - their status and funding in the case of public schools is directly linked to the number of kids taking APs - the more kids that take APs the more funding the school gets in many jurisdictions). This drives schools to push teachers to teach AP and kids to take AP classes and teaches to the AP exams so that kids pass. Teaching to exams is not necessarily and often is not the same thing as teaching so that kids really learn and think about the material - this is the major complaint that is being made all over the nation by education systems about no child left behind and teachers being required to teach AP when they do not have the level of expertise, resources, or knowledge to do so yet – hence the watering down of AP classes.

I absolutely support learning and studying - for the purpose of learning and expanding minds and creativity - what is at issue is the cost/benefit equation of AP exams for students. When kids either cannot score high enough to get credit or cannot get credit period, then where is the benefit for them? Of course if you don't believe/agree that schools are teaching to tests then I can see your point.

Kids in high school need balance between studies and other life expanding/learning activities in order to grow into their full potential as human beings. I am not saying that all kids (especially not home schooled kids who can have a much different learning environment) are stressed about getting 4 or 5's on APs, but given the competition for colleges (and I can tell you several stories about the University of MD and in-state kids with 3.85-4.0 GPAs and 4 APs not getting in) it is necessary to weigh the pros and cons of preparing for APs and SATs and what kids give up and what they get in return. Don't get me started on SATs either....a flawed test that exists and is changed to create money for big business not to help our kids learn.

Check this out http://www.tce.umd.edu/apchart.html:

Univ. MD does accept MANY APs but only does so with a number of caveats about equivalencies and scores - e.g., there are a number of APs that cannot be applied to an equivalent class to meet certain major requirements - so even if you do AP Microeconomics for example and your Major is Economics and you need to do Introductory Microeconomics for your major, you will not get credit for taking AP Microeconomics in your major area, only AP Macroeconomics (assuming you did Macro and not Micro AP). So you will have to redo Introductory Microeconomics - you will not have saved any time or money with this AP. Or take the Micro CLEP that they will give credit for in your major or core requirements - however as things change all the time it is necessary to make sure that they will accept an AP Macro and a CLEP Micro and not either or... Also note that "Any new exams offered after February 15, 2003 may or may not be evaluated by the appropriate department"…no eval = no credit.

Which was my whole point - IF students are taking AP exams to save time and money in college (which is often how it is sold to parents and kids - especially "average" kids - those in the 50-80 percentile) they will run into issues with credit at 4 year universities. IF students are only taking AP classes because they are so bright that anything less would not be challenging enough then maybe - if the subject is taught for real learning purposes NOT just test taking results - and that depends on the school's philosophy and funding status on AP exams.

Don't get me wrong - I strongly believe high schools and middle schools need to raise the bar as to the quality and level of education our kids receive - and if you get a knowledgeable teacher who is qualified to teach AP courses then kids will be able to really learn and think about the material, otherwise you are just taking tests that may or may not get you credit.

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I think our discussion has spiraled off into another direction- and off topic, so at this point let's just be finished.