MSK9's Medical School Thread & Guide

[eLearner]

..since I know nothing about you or your intentions other than what you post on the internet, I'd say it's probably safer to err on the side of caution.

Sure, and that can go both ways. However, I've also been here for a long time so if you go by what I post on the internet as you say, then your concern with my intent wouldn't line up with the history of what I've posted here.

Yes, it is a distance learning board and it's important to understand that distance learning and doctoral medical education are not really a legitimate thing at this point in time, at least as far as practicing in the US.

That is inaccurate. Its legitimacy is a matter of fact since there are licensed Doctors from those programs working in the United States. You're using disqualifying words where it would be more appropriate to use words that denote limit and lower numbers vs. the norm.

Yale's Medical school has an online PA program, and there are others. Granted, those are not MD programs, but they are still medical schools offering medical education, and when we're talking Yale we're talking Ivy League, top tier, best of the best. 

Doctoral medical education is "legitimate" where it is granted approval and license to operate, further legitimized by Doctors who have been licensed to practice from those programs. How you may feel about it is a separate matter. A negative feeling doesn't make it illegitimate. Now, if the question becomes a matter of school quality, that's a different situation, but anyone who has had long enough experience at balanced education boards like this one knows that most negative claims on these types of boards against a school's quality come from people who've never attended the school and are simply offering an opinion that fits a preconceived notion or concept of what they feel a school should be which is not an objective viewpoint.

Let's not forget that COVID has caused medical schools to have to teach their students online, so the positions that states like Indiana (and others) have against having any part of medical education taken online barring a Doctor from licensure will now have to have an exception. The exception, regardless of the current circumstance causing it, will now call in to question why the rule exists at all. 

I make no claims or warranties on the quality of the education the schools I listed offer. I've never attended those schools and have not read enough good or bad about them (and that wasn't through a lack of trying) to make a final judgement on that end, I pointed them out as distance learning options because they are distance learning options and this is a distance learning forum, and because there have been reports of success from each program. In truth however, neither of us knows exactly the quality of them either and that's the point that has to be considered. If we're going to dismiss something simply because it has a distance learning component, then at that point we're at the wrong internet forum.

I don't have an opinion on what the future might hold as far as this is concerned but I'm pretty sure I'd never want a physician who got their medical degree online to work on me. Just putting that out there.

Well, post-COVID, you're going to have to go through an awful lot of trouble to avoid that since medical schools are teaching their students online now. You'll have to search each public profile and go only to Doctors who became licensed pre-COVID. At some point as you get older, that's going to get tricky and will likely wind up an exercise in futility, and there may be situations (like an emergency) where you won't have a choice. You'll also have to do a lot of avoiding with Nurses, too, since they now have online options across the country, some to even become RN's (and that's growing all the time).

Besides all of that, I think the point you're overlooking is that no one can earn their medical degree (or Nursing degree) entirely online. That's never been possible and it never will be. As I explained in a previous post, people who go to these online medical programs receive the same hours of hands-on training that a fully ground-based medical student does because authorities in every state and country mandate this before one can be licensed, not to mention the fact that they have to pass all of the exact same tests as fully ground-based students. The only difference is that the 2 years of basic sciences are taught almost entirely online: IUHS, entirely. COMHSSL, partially. Oceania, partially. But it's been discussed here and on other boards how Stanford medical students (and students from other medical schools) were known to rarely or never come to class and just listened to lectures at 2x (or higher) speeds during the 2 years of basic sciences, only to pass with flying colors and move on to rotations, do well there, and move on to licensure and residency. You actually hear stories like that all the time on the (extremely toxic) StudentDoctorNetwork forum and it's ironic given the stance most there have against online learning. I've always found that comical.

Just because something may be acceptable elsewhere doesn't mean it's wise.

True. It doesn't mean it's unwise either.

California, for all its issues, isn't wrong in their reasoning/recognition.

Except now California (and other states) will have no choice but to make exceptions regarding online medical education within its own country.

It will also be argued going forward that the rule is flawed since it fails to take into account that each student has to take the same amount of hands-on hours and pass the same exams in order to become eligible to practice. The thought process of California's position is about safety, and that's well taken. But at the same time, their reasoning disregards that their own standard safeguards for clinical hours and testing for offline students already accomplishes that when/if applied to both online students.

Let's put this in a real-world sense:

Offline student: Rarely or never shows for class during basic sciences. Listens to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.

Online student: Studies basic sciences online which may also include listening to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.

Nothing was different there, because technically both students listened to their lectures online, both passed the same exams. In reality, the offline student really was an online student just without the designation.

I'm not okay with subpar healthcare training regardless of where it is or who is on the receiving end of it.

Agreed.

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"licensed doctors working in the United States" is both broad and vague.

Broad, sure, that's the nature of things because it would be rather difficult to track down all licensed Doctors in the United States from all online medical programs that have existed over the years.

Vague? I don't think so. "Licensed Doctor" is self-explanatory.

I'd certainly be willing to give consideration to what you present on this statement. I mean, you've rendered a thoughtful reply to my post so I assume you'd be willing to shoulder the burden of proof.

Hmmmm. Well, my initial post was never about "proving" anything, it was about mentioning distance learning options that have been known to be legitimate and produce some successful outcomes, there are other ones that are the opposite and so I didn't post those. If you're looking for me to track down and post a handful of Doctors who are licensed after completing those programs then you've mistaken the intent. Granted, it's not hard to find some by Googling, but if I were interested in proving something for each school I would've done that long ago and those schools would've had to be paying me to do it.

It doesn't take much to become ECFMG certified, which is how caribbean institutions' students are allowed to sit for the USMLE. I'll be the first to declare that "nothing's impossible," but there's a reason the MATCH data isn't published.

It's probably low. By the same token, those schools don't enroll that many students compared to many other schools, but lower admission requirements will generally mean higher dropout rates. That being said, the few Doctors that make it through to licensure proved themselves by passing the same exams and making it through the same clinical hours as their offline-only counterparts.

State law is premepted by federal law, and federal law states that MDs must pass the USMLE in its entirety to practice.

Which is exactly what online medical students have to do.

I appreciate your appreciation. It's okay that you find my cautioning unnecessary, I'll continue cautioning where I feel appropriate and it's your right to object or protest. Ying and yang. People will keep on keeping on and doing what they do.

"Feel" is part of the issue. You're taking a stance against a type of online education on a board dedicated to online education. That's like showing up to a 70's party and protesting against the fact that everyone is wearing bell bottoms.

The tuition debate is best left to another thread

I'm not debating it. There is nothing to debate. The cost is high, that's consensus. But that's part of the point of mentioning what I did. IUHS is much less expensive than almost all ground-based only options. A person accustomed to distance learning (99.99999% of the people here), interested in medical education, and not looking to spend up to $200K to get it might be interested in a program like that.

but I agree that anyone who prepared to spend or borrow money on any kind of education should definitely be doing their research.

That's the main takeaway. Options. Research. What I posted is not going to be right for everybody. What you posted is not going to be right for everybody evidenced by the reply from indigoshuffle. This being a distance learning board, people should know about distance learning options. If a person is going to be a Doctor, they should already be the type of person who researches things thoroughly before they proceed with a major life choice. If not, they shouldn't be trying to become Doctors.