MSK9's Medical School Thread & Guide

[bjcheung77]

For the price, I think Doane and UNE has it at the "sweet spot" of around $1000 to $1500, anything more expensive would not appeal to anyone, they would rather take it butt-in-seat if possible. That being said, I think the cheaper/easier, maybe even faster option would be doing the "hard sciences" and getting a BS Human Biology at Logan University.

It would be $275/credit at Logan... I just checked, UNE is $360/credit and Doane is $357/credit
Another option you can check is Ocean County, I don't know the exact fee but see below:
It indicates $250/semester hour + E-learning fee, but doesn't show what the e-learning fee is!

Ocean County: https://www.ocean.edu/admission_and_aid/...-and-fees/
UNE Link: https://online.une.edu/science-prerequisites/cost/
Doane Link: https://www.doane.edu/graduate-and-adult/tuition-costs

[Jonathan Whatley]

Mayville State University has several online science courses with physical at-home labs.

[JWells247]

For the price, I think Doane and UNE has it at the "sweet spot" of around $1000 to $1500, anything more expensive would not appeal to anyone, they would rather take it butt-in-seat if possible.   That being said, I think the cheaper/easier, maybe even faster option would be doing the "hard sciences" and getting a BS Human Biology at Logan University.  

It would be $275/credit at Logan... I just checked, UNE is $360/credit and Doane is $357/credit
Another option you can check is Ocean County, I don't know the exact fee but see below:
It indicates $250/semester hour + E-learning fee, but doesn't show what the e-learning fee is!

Ocean County: https://www.ocean.edu/admission_and_aid/...-and-fees/
UNE Link: https://online.une.edu/science-prerequisites/cost/
Doane Link: https://www.doane.edu/graduate-and-adult/tuition-costs

Hi there BJ, 
Long time no talk to! I hope that you are doing okay with all this craziness going on. I hope everyone here is okay. I am trying to work around the non-matriculated option and apply as matriculated in order to be eligible for financial aid. 
I applied to TESU this semester. And financial aid with the Pell Grant covered $1848 of the $2,274.00 ($379x6). Which left me $426 to pay out of pocket for two classes. Not bad at all! I want the least amount of loans possible.  I spoke with Doane today and they told me that non-matriculated students are not eligible for financial aid (only private loans). I am looking to see if I have to sacrifice speed for cost. I will look into Ocean County and see what they say I already contacted Doane and UNE to see if they would allow me to matriculate in order to apply/pay with financial aid. Might as well use it before I loose it! And put it to good cause.

[MSK9]

Thread bump for user muu9.

Muu, please enable your private messages and send me another one so I can answer your question.

[eLearner]

Since this is a thread about medical schools on an online degree forum, I'll throw these online medical schools into the mix:

International University of Health Sciences

Oceania University of Medicine

College of Medicine and Health Sciences St. Lucia

[MSK9]

Since this is a thread about medical schools on an online degree forum, I'll throw these online medical schools into the mix:

International University of Health Sciences

Oceania University of Medicine

College of Medicine and Health Sciences St. Lucia

While I assume you're just trying to be helpful, none of these schools listed are recognized by the State of California Medical Board, which is the standard by which most states adhere when allowing graduates of international medical schools to practice in their respective jurisdictions. It may just be me, but after looking at their websites, these "schools" look more like scam operations than educational institutions. I think schools such as these only serve to tarnish the reputation of legitimate institutions.

I caution any reader or user of this thread to STEER CLEAR of the schools you listed.

[eLearner]

Since this is a thread about medical schools on an online degree forum, I'll throw these online medical schools into the mix:

International University of Health Sciences

Oceania University of Medicine

College of Medicine and Health Sciences St. Lucia

While I assume you're just trying to be helpful, none of these schools listed are recognized by the State of California Medical Board, which is the standard by which most states adhere when allowing graduates of international medical schools to practice in their respective jurisdictions. It may just be me, but after looking at their websites, these "schools" look more like scam operations than educational institutions. I think schools such as these only serve to tarnish the reputation of legitimate institutions.

I caution any reader or user of this thread to STEER CLEAR of the schools you listed.

That's a very short-sighted, narrow view of things, and I take issue with the erroneous notion that I would post something that could be a scam or is illegitimate.

This is a distance learning board, so it's important to understand that people who come to this board are from all over the world and some are accustomed to studying with distance learning schools outside the United States, and that includes some people who are living in the United States.

While the State of California's positions are important for California and some other states in the United States that wish to follow, they are irrelevant to most other places around the world so it wouldn't make sense to limit information simply to that.

Further, associating them with "scams" is inaccurate, especially considering they all have licensed Doctors working in the United States and other countries (with one charging a fraction of what most in the United States charge), and because they each are legally authorized to operate in their home countries like any other legitimate Carribbean/non-American medical school is. It should also be understood that in order for graduates from those legitimate schools to practice in the United States, they had to (and new grads still have to) pass the exact same exams, and perform the same levels of mandated clinical training as any other medical student is required to, because, after all, the states demand it as do the authorities of the other countries where Doctors from those schools have been licensed to practice over the years.

So while I appreciate the spirit of the caution, it's unnecessary. If a person can go to medical school in their own country, that's obviously the best bet, but for others who are unable for a number of reasons or find that the cost is far out of reach in their own country (which is common here in the United States with our exorbitant tuition rates), those are legal alternatives that people have found success using. If a person happens to be in a state that doesn't accept it, that's unfortunate, but it's also up to each adult to do their own research before enrolling in any program of any kind anywhere, and if they don't do that then the results are of their own doing.

[indigoshuffle]

Since this is a thread about medical schools on an online degree forum, I'll throw these online medical schools into the mix:

International University of Health Sciences

Oceania University of Medicine

College of Medicine and Health Sciences St. Lucia

While I assume you're just trying to be helpful...

...I caution any reader or user of this thread to STEER CLEAR of the schools you listed.

That's a very short-sighted, narrow view of things, and I take issue with the erroneous notion that I would post something that could be a scam or is illegitimate.

This is a distance learning board, so it's important to understand that people who come to this board are from all over the world and some are accustomed to studying with distance learning schools outside the United States, and that includes some people who are living in the United States.

While the State of California's positions are important for California and some other states in the United States that wish to follow, they are irrelevant to most other places around the world so it wouldn't make sense to limit information simply to that.

Further, associating them with "scams" is inaccurate...

...So while I appreciate the spirit of the caution, it's unnecessary. If a person can go to medical school in their own country, that's obviously the best bet, but for others who are unable for a number of reasons or find that the cost is far out of reach in their own country (which is common here in the United States with our exorbitant tuition rates), those are legal alternatives that people have found success using. 

I checked out Oceania University of Medicine months ago, and I think it's a great program. I wouldn't go, but I see they have a handful of graduates in Florida, and quite a bit of students from other countries. I wouldn't go as far as to call it a scam. They're actually ahead of their time. If you study the purpose of the school, Oceania was designed to fill a severe Doctor shortage in Samoa and to create an opportunity for locals to possibly have a shot at medical school due to location and poverty. It's an excellent program if you plan to be an MD in Apia, Samoa... but I wouldn't recommend it otherwise. 
The problem I have with all Caribbean schools are: 

1) They are private, for-profit institutions, and right now St. George (SGU), one of the "big four" is enrolling 1500. This year they are opening ANOTHER CLASS.

2) For USMLE STEP 1, the claimed pass rate is 94% and the average STEP score is 224. 

CAVEAT EMPTOR 
1. At SGU you have to take an internal test before you can take Step 1. So if you don't meet their cut off number, they won't even let you take the exam. Not because it will hurt you, but because it will make the school look bad. I wonder how many of the 1500-1700 students actually are able to pass their internal exams?
   
2. At SGU 224 is the average score of the students WHO passed THE EXAM, not the average of all the students. With no standard deviation, a median score would be more representative than a mean.
   
3. At SGU they claim the match rate is 93%, but the specialties are limited. Over the past 2 years, I saw one student match into orthopedics, no plastic surgery, one dermatology, one ophthalmologist. This is crucial because everyone going in will, of course, say that they're happy with primary care and they just want MD tattooed on them when they die. Problem is, over 75% of medical students change their minds about their residency choices. This is because clinical exposure is low. As they learn more about what's out there, they're bound to change their mind.
   https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/right...ialtiesNow, the 93% match rate, only applies to people who were able to apply to the match. Out of the, now 1600 students, only 1000 apply each year. A student is allowed to repeat up to a year of classes (more debt) and supposedly some students just take time off. So if 1000 people are graduating, and the attrition rate is only 10%, why aren't 1500 people graduating every year??? Their attrition rate HAS to be higher than 10% so they're not being honest... which is scary for a school that costs that much.4. The base cost of SGU is $400,000. Even with scholarships, the loan options are not going to be as good, as an American medical school. Keep in mind, compounding interest; because of that the total cost will be far far more than $400,000

[MSK9]

That's a very short-sighted, narrow view of things, and I take issue with the erroneous notion that I would post something that could be a scam or is illegitimate.

..since I know nothing about you or your intentions other than what you post on the internet, I'd say it's probably safer to err on the side of caution.

This is a distance learning board, so it's important to understand that people who come to this board are from all over the world and some are accustomed to studying with distance learning schools outside the United States, and that includes some people who are living in the United States.

Yes, it is a distance learning board and it's important to understand that distance learning and doctoral medical education are not really a legitimate thing at this point in time, at least as far as practicing in the US.

I don't have an opinion on what the future might hold as far as this is concerned but I'm pretty sure I'd never want a physician who got their medical degree online to work on me. Just putting that out there.

While the State of California's positions are important for California and some other states in the United States that wish to follow, they are irrelevant to most other places around the world so it wouldn't make sense to limit information simply to that.

Just because something may be acceptable elsewhere doesn't mean it's wise. California, for all its issues, isn't wrong in their reasoning/recognition. I'm not okay with subpar healthcare training regardless of where it is or who is on the receiving end of it.

Further, associating them with "scams" is inaccurate, especially considering they all have licensed Doctors working in the United States and other countries (with one charging a fraction of what most in the United States charge), and because they each are legally authorized to operate in their home countries like any other legitimate Carribbean/non-American medical school is. It should also be understood that in order for graduates from those legitimate schools to practice in the United States, they had to (and new grads still have to) pass the exact same exams, and perform the same levels of mandated clinical training as any other medical student is required to, because, after all, the states demand it as do the authorities of the other countries where Doctors from those schools have been licensed to practice over the years.

"licensed doctors working in the United States" is both broad and vague. I'd certainly be willing to give consideration to what you present on this statement. I mean, you've rendered a thoughtful reply to my post so I assume you'd be willing to shoulder the burden of proof.

It doesn't take much to become ECFMG certified, which is how caribbean institutions' students are allowed to sit for the USMLE. I'll be the first to declare that "nothing's impossible," but there's a reason the MATCH data isn't published.

State law is premepted by federal law, and federal law states that MDs must pass the USMLE in its entirety to practice.

So while I appreciate the spirit of the caution, it's unnecessary. If a person can go to medical school in their own country, that's obviously the best bet, but for others who are unable for a number of reasons or find that the cost is far out of reach in their own country (which is common here in the United States with our exorbitant tuition rates), those are legal alternatives that people have found success using. If a person happens to be in a state that doesn't accept it, that's unfortunate, but it's also up to each adult to do their own research before enrolling in any program of any kind anywhere, and if they don't do that then the results are of their own doing.

I appreciate your appreciation. It's okay that you find my cautioning unnecessary, I'll continue cautioning where I feel appropriate and it's your right to object or protest. Ying and yang. People will keep on keeping on and doing what they do.

The tuition debate is best left to another thread but I agree that anyone who prepared to spend or borrow money on any kind of education should definitely be doing their research

---

@indigoshuffle I checked out Oceania University of Medicine months ago, and I think it's a great program. I wouldn't go, but I see they have a handful of graduates in Florida, and quite a bit of students from other countries. I wouldn't go as far as to call it a scam.

Quick interjection: I noted that it "looked like a scam," whether it is or not is a question best left to those who've attended. My statement is based on a couple of things: information available on their website (admission and omissions of academic processes), NRMP MATCH data, and recognition by the United States/State governments. My statement doesn't factor in residency entrances based on alternate MATCH or means.

They're actually ahead of their time. If you study the purpose of the school, Oceania was designed to fill a severe Doctor shortage in Samoa and to create an opportunity for locals to possibly have a shot at medical school due to location and poverty. It's an excellent program if you plan to be an MD in Apia, Samoa... but I wouldn't recommend it otherwise.

The problem I have with all Caribbean schools are: 

1) They are private, for-profit institutions, and right now St. George (SGU), one of the "big four" is enrolling 1500. This year they are opening ANOTHER CLASS.

They are indeed. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are private, for-profit medical schools on the US-mainland too. Private and public non-profits are endowed and funded for billions of dollars; someone somewhere is profiting no matter what the charitable status. Let's just be real here.

I think it's worth noting that St. George's University also has a large international student body. Though the students are integrated regardless of national origin, the School of Medicine is sub-divided into smaller colleges on different schedules, which reduces the class sizes. If we're going to compare apples, shall we compare them to apples and not oranges?

2) For USMLE STEP 1, the claimed pass rate is 94% and the average STEP score is 224. 

CAVEAT EMPTOR 
1.     At SGU you have to take an internal test before you can take Step 1. So if you don't meet their cut off number, they won't even let you take the exam. Not because it will hurt you, but because it will make the school look bad. I wonder how many of the 1500-1700 students actually are able to pass their internal exams?

Many attendees and graduates of SGU have no intention of practicing in the United States and return to their home countries to practice medicine. Other countries have their own licensing exams. The USMLE has no bearing for them. That said, one would need to calculate only the number of US-eligible students who plan on practicing only in the United States to get a more accurate number of what the Step 1 pass rate is (93%). It would probably also be worth calculating the first-time pass rate percentage of the US-eligible/US practice-intended students versus their own group of non-first-time passers.

Internal courses must be passed with term-to-term carried-over weighted grade point average (73.5 - 75% if I'm not mistaken - see the student manual.) I don't think it's a bad thing to make sure someone is prepared for what is arguably the most difficult licensing exam in medicine. If you're failing your classes and your NBME exams, you wouldn't be able to sit for the USMLE.

As it stands, each USMLE step can be taken a total of six times, HOWEVER, residency program directors are privy to the total number of attempts/failures. If a student isn't ready, allowing them to take and fail the USMLE puts them a massive disadvantage.
1.     At SGU 224 is the average score of the students WHO passed THE EXAM, not the average of all the students. With no standard deviation, a median score would be more representative than a mean.

To address this, I would need to understand what argument you were trying to make with this statement. What exactly are you looking to extrapolate from a median score? Comparison between schools for USMLE step 1 performances?  Sidebar: Step 1 is but one piece of the overall USMLE and now is Pass/Fail across the board for all US-practice-intending medical students.
1.     At SGU they claim the match rate is 93%, but the specialties are limited. Over the past 2 years, I saw one student match into orthopedics, no plastic surgery, one dermatology, one ophthalmologist. This is crucial because everyone going in will, of course, say that they're happy with primary care and they just want MD tattooed on them when they die. Problem is, over 75% of medical students change their minds about their residency choices. This is because clinical exposure is low. As they learn more about what's out there, they're bound to change their mind.
https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/right...ialtiesNow, the 93% match rate, only applies to people who were able to apply to the match. Out of the, now 1600 students, only 1000 apply each year.
2.    
There are a few things to address here. Ortho, plastics, derm, and ophthalmology are the most competitive specialties anywhere in US medical academics. While it is technically possible to match these from an international school, it is definitely difficult. Many US-mainland educated doctors have difficulty matching into these, so I don't think that's a good example. Not every professional athlete has the skill, opportunity, or desire to compete in the Olympics.

I wouldn't classify those fields as crucial for physicians matching for the first time. Also, keep in mind that many US students do not match the first go-round. They SOAP, get hired outside of the match, or use an alternate match such as SFMATCH to obtain their residency. It's pretty common. The NRMP MATCH is not the only way to obtain a residency, just the most common way. Their numbers only reflect applicants to that specific system.
 
1.     A student is allowed to repeat up to a year of classes (more debt) and supposedly some students just take time off. So if 1000 people are graduating, and the attrition rate is only 10%, why aren't 1500 people graduating every year??? Their attrition rate HAS to be higher than 10% so they're not being honest... which is scary for a school that costs that much.

Students who repeat coursework only pay administrative fees, not tuition. It's in the student handbook. The attrition rate also includes students who had the prerequisites for admission but were not ready for the challenge. I'm not sure where that 10% is from. I'm not able to find that figure published anywhere.
 
2.     4. The base cost of SGU is $400,000. Even with scholarships, the loan options are not going to be as good, as an American medical school. Keep in mind, compounding interest; because of that the total cost will be far far more than $400,000

This is wholly inaccurate. I assure you the "base cost" is nowhere near $400,000. Even the "comfort and wiggle room" budget examples SGU posts on their website are $100,000 cheaper than that.

Is it possible to rack-up that kind of debt? Of course, it is. It's also quite possible to do that at a US-mainland school. Ask most US-mainland educated physicians who took student loans to live on beyond the cost of tuition. I promise that their debt load runs the gamut. I've asked and discussed this with many myself, but don't take my word for it. I encourage you to do the same.

Anecdote incoming: An emergency physician I know attended the University of Mississippi Medical School, which has some of the cheapest tuition and associated costs of living in the US. He graduated pushing $250,000 in loan debt. Outside of tuition and materials, it's all in how you live.

As far as loan options, SGU, Ross, Saba, et cetera, qualify for US Department of Education student loans, which is the standard for any US-mainland school. /shrug

[nyvrem]

@MSK9

Im not sure if anyone ever asked, but were you accepted into other medical schools that you applied too?