Harvard Extension School Students Rally for Degree Name Change

[ThatBankDude]

At the end of the day, the degree has Harvard's name on it. While I do not like the degree naming convention at HES, each student who attends has a choice. Pursue a degree at HES with what it is titled or pursue a different degree elsewhere.

[datby98]

Actually, Harvard could rename the 'Extension School' to 'Executive School.'
Hurrah, problems have gone, and they can charge triple the price even.

That would really anger the Harvard alumni base since that would sound more prestigious.

Sure, they will be angry, and my proposal would incentivize those elites to continue their education at HES (possibly with an alumni discount), remove the stigma of HES degrees, substantialize Havard's otherwise fake advertising as shown on its website, make me a candidate for Nobel Peace Prize for solving the big problem for human beings, and leave a classic MBA-case in textbooks.
Win-...-Win situations, Hahahaha.

[ReyMysterioso]

"So they actually are one of the 12 schools that comprise Harvard University.  They do use many of the same instructors but I do not think the Harvard College students generally attend HES courses."


I'm in an ALM program. Currently in my last semester. Over the course of 11 classes, I have probably been in class with about six or seven Harvard College students throughout various classes. This happens more often during Summer School than during the spring/fall semesters as in my personal experience it seems that many HC students pick up electives over summer to get ahead/stay ahead. 
I don't think the spring/fall HES classes are open to HC students in general. (Maybe they can get special permission.) However some HC instructors will open up their Harvard College classes for HES students in spring/fall and it will be listed separately in both catalogs, but they'll attend the exact same class. Sometimes it's hybrid where there might be 10 students in person and 20 on a giant screen in the back of the lecture hall and you could come in person or do it online from week to week or all one or all the other.

It goes the other way too. As long as your GPA is above a certain threshold, you can fill out a "special student" form (which is generally rubber-stamped) and be eligible to take classes from most of the other 11 schools (and even MIT!) as long as your advisor approves of class as a valid elective in your program.

I don't think PUG is a good comparison. That's a whole other school than Purdue. At HES, you pick up the the same ID as all other students from the same Smith Center. You get the same access to all the buildings, libraries, facilities, student centers, meal plans, dining halls (except the first-year only Mem) etc etc as any other Harvard grad student. HES students are eligible for clubs, club-level athletics and recreation. I've participated in a few club sports with kids from all over the world. It was a great experience.

Now obviously at the undergrad level there are significant differences. You don't go through the house system and all that. But at the grad level, I haven't found where HES is much different than any other grad school except that it has merit-based earn-your-way-in admission. 

Nobody once ever treated me like a second-class citizen anywhere in Cambridge. All I've ever heard any faculty say was that the wide variety of backgrounds, life experiences and professional expertise the HES students contribute to the University was an invaluable asset to the institution and student body. 

It's been a great experience and while I support the change to academically accurate degrees, I frankly don't care what the diploma ends up saying on mine. (It's in Latin anyway.)

[Alpha]

"So they actually are one of the 12 schools that comprise Harvard University.  They do use many of the same instructors but I do not think the Harvard College students generally attend HES courses."


I'm in an ALM program. Currently in my last semester. Over the course of 11 classes, I have probably been in class with about six or seven Harvard College students throughout various classes. This happens more often during Summer School than during the spring/fall semesters as in my personal experience it seems that many HC students pick up electives over summer to get ahead/stay ahead. 
I don't think the spring/fall HES classes are open to HC students in general. (Maybe they can get special permission.) However some HC instructors will open up their Harvard College classes for HES students in spring/fall and it will be listed separately in both catalogs, but they'll attend the exact same class. Sometimes it's hybrid where there might be 10 students in person and 20 on a giant screen in the back of the lecture hall and you could come in person or do it online from week to week or all one or all the other.

It goes the other way too. As long as your GPA is above a certain threshold, you can fill out a "special student" form (which is generally rubber-stamped) and be eligible to take classes from most of the other 11 schools (and even MIT!) as long as your advisor approves of class as a valid elective in your program.

I don't think PUG is a good comparison. That's a whole other school than Purdue. At HES, you pick up the the same ID as all other students from the same Smith Center. You get the same access to all the buildings, libraries, facilities, student centers, meal plans, dining halls (except the first-year only Mem) etc etc as any other Harvard grad student. HES students are eligible for clubs, club-level athletics and recreation. I've participated in a few club sports with kids from all over the world. It was a great experience.

Now obviously at the undergrad level there are significant differences. You don't go through the house system and all that. But at the grad level, I haven't found where HES is much different than any other grad school except that it has merit-based earn-your-way-in admission. 

Nobody once ever treated me like a second-class citizen anywhere in Cambridge. All I've ever heard any faculty say was that the wide variety of backgrounds, life experiences and professional expertise the HES students contribute to the University was an invaluable asset to the institution and student body. 

It's been a great experience and while I support the change to academically accurate degrees, I frankly don't care what the diploma ends up saying on mine. (It's in Latin anyway.)

It's always good to get first person experience from the inside.  Thanks

[Life_One]

"So they actually are one of the 12 schools that comprise Harvard University.  They do use many of the same instructors but I do not think the Harvard College students generally attend HES courses."


I'm in an ALM program. Currently in my last semester. Over the course of 11 classes, I have probably been in class with about six or seven Harvard College students throughout various classes. This happens more often during Summer School than during the spring/fall semesters as in my personal experience it seems that many HC students pick up electives over summer to get ahead/stay ahead. 
I don't think the spring/fall HES classes are open to HC students in general. (Maybe they can get special permission.) However some HC instructors will open up their Harvard College classes for HES students in spring/fall and it will be listed separately in both catalogs, but they'll attend the exact same class. Sometimes it's hybrid where there might be 10 students in person and 20 on a giant screen in the back of the lecture hall and you could come in person or do it online from week to week or all one or all the other.

It goes the other way too. As long as your GPA is above a certain threshold, you can fill out a "special student" form (which is generally rubber-stamped) and be eligible to take classes from most of the other 11 schools (and even MIT!) as long as your advisor approves of class as a valid elective in your program.

I don't think PUG is a good comparison. That's a whole other school than Purdue. At HES, you pick up the the same ID as all other students from the same Smith Center. You get the same access to all the buildings, libraries, facilities, student centers, meal plans, dining halls (except the first-year only Mem) etc etc as any other Harvard grad student. HES students are eligible for clubs, club-level athletics and recreation. I've participated in a few club sports with kids from all over the world. It was a great experience.

Now obviously at the undergrad level there are significant differences. You don't go through the house system and all that. But at the grad level, I haven't found where HES is much different than any other grad school except that it has merit-based earn-your-way-in admission. 

Nobody once ever treated me like a second-class citizen anywhere in Cambridge. All I've ever heard any faculty say was that the wide variety of backgrounds, life experiences and professional expertise the HES students contribute to the University was an invaluable asset to the institution and student body. 

It's been a great experience and while I support the change to academically accurate degrees, I frankly don't care what the diploma ends up saying on mine. (It's in Latin anyway.)

Thank you for answering many questions about HES! But I have a few more. 


I see in your signature that you have taken classes at other universities, could you tell me how the classes are better/different at HES compared to the others? I mean, what sets HES classes apart from say ASU? The professors? The environment? The material?

[collegecareerstudent]

I go to the Extension School and I really don't like it when people try to argue we don't want Harvard Extension School on the diploma. Are there some frauds who want to portray themselves as something they are not aka from the college? Sure. Those people suck. However, our degrees are meant to be written on resumes and on our diplomas as Harvard Extension School, Masters in Extension Studies, Field: English. We are not hairdressers. We don't study extensions. No one does. That's the issue for the vast majority of us. I never wanted to attend Harvard College. It was never on my radar when I was younger. I knew I wanted to go to a strong graduate school and HES represents to me what we value at a school in this forum- flexibility, affordability (though the price is getting steeper), and transfer credits.

Additionally, this rally happened after we finally had our convocation which was cancelled repeatedly due to the pandemic. Many of us are working professionals, and international. We aren't on campus consistently, and that can hinder our voices. I'm on the events committee and appreciate the president of HESA having a rally- anything- really. Extension students are from all over the world- I'm currently in Beijing. I would have certainly been at the rally had I been stateside but many students aren't or live far away. However, the rally accurately depicts what at least 10,000 of us who supported this initiative on the HES FaceBook group and at HESA events vocalized. We do many club meetings on Zoom and for the events committee I serve on, we still find ways to contribute to campus while either going to the campus, or hosting donation drives, donating money, etc. It should say something to you about the actual number of students who wanted to be there or who care about the initiative and support it for us to also be active members of this forum.

Harvard Extension is Harvard University. Harvard has 12 degree granting institutions on campus, with the college for undergraduates being the most prestigious. Harvard Law School, Harvard Business School, Harvard Graduate School of Education, Harvard Kennedy School of Government, Harvard Extension School, and so on, mostly cater to graduate students (though the Extension school does offer an undergraduate option- though it costs more, and takes longer to complete- so I wouldn't do it). When you graduate from Harvard Extension School, you are graduating from Harvard University. Even if you want to consider it the community college equivalent- it's the best community college in the world, arguably. As someone who has taken courses at Kennedy School, and HGSE, my extension courses were by far the most rigorous and challenging.

In Extension Studies makes no sense- but if we don't enroll and represent ourselves well and hold our Extension affiliation up proudly, and keep trying to do what we can to draw attention to the issue- things will continue to remain the same. My field is English, not Extension Studies.

Should anyone have questions about the programs, or want details about what students can or can't do, or what we actually do, I'm more than happy to answer. This fight is far from over.

Much of the bullying/discrimination is from members of the college, I'm sad to say. I was once removed from a job my first week of being there because one of the members of the college complained that someone "like me" shouldn't be there in their Harvard division. No, I didn't lie about my extension affiliation nor did I alter any information about my program, school, or field. Karma got them in the end, though, but we can't act like there isn't a group of students who do not like members of the Extension community. It's a very real thing- and those not showing pride in their Extension diplomas/experiences do us no favors.

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If anyone is interesting in seeing the Harvard Extension Transcript, let me know. I'll upload mine.

[Sdmj33]

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If anyone is interesting in seeing the Harvard Extension Transcript, let me know. I'll upload mine.

I am

[collegecareerstudent]

  tran1.png (Size: 187.78 KB / Downloads: 85)
  tran2.png (Size: 311.27 KB / Downloads: 71)
  tran3.png (Size: 301.78 KB / Downloads: 58)
  tran4.png (Size: 275.19 KB / Downloads: 55)    Here are the images of my Harvard Extension Transcript with identifying information removed. The transcript design has been redesigned last year. Up until last year, you could only get a paper transcript. Now, these online transcripts are available, too. It doesn't say Harvard Extension School in caps at the top or anything like that, but the degree name clearly states the Extension Studies program.

[smartdegree]

Much of the bullying/discrimination is from members of the college, I'm sad to say. I was once removed from a job my first week of being there because one of the members of the college complained that someone "like me" shouldn't be there in their Harvard division. 

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Thanks for your posts! 

Why do you think there is so much hate towards Extension students within the Harvard community?  I don't sense the same thing is happening in similar schools like Columbia's School of Professional Studies, Penn's LPS College or Georgetown's Continuing Studies.   Why is this discrimination only seen at Harvard?  

Also, your transcript says the degree is from DCE.  Can't you all just say DCE rather than extension?  In English, the word "Extension" denotes something that is literally not part of the original.  Whereas a "Division (DCE)" is literally a part of the original.  DCE sounds a hell of a lot better than Extension, especially in other countries where Extension is not a term that is used with universities.

[collegecareerstudent]

I felt compelled to write in-depth, addressing comments from this thread. I also wanted to provide additional information for everyone.

First comment- “The Extension School isn't the regular Harvard.” There is NO regular Harvard. Because students and parents are usually obsessed with getting into undergraduate school, there is this false assumption that Harvard College is the only “Real” Harvard due to the low admittance rate. However, Harvard has 12 degree granting schools- and all of their diplomas look different and have naming rules. Harvard College grants undergraduate degrees. Harvard Extension School grants undergraduate and graduate degrees. The other schools only grant graduate degrees. Thus, most students at Harvard are there for graduate school and have nothing to do with the college.

“The students knew what they were signing up for.” Yes we did. We also knew we needed to talk to the Dean, Graduate Council, advocates on campus to cause change, and by not enrolling no one would talk to us and we’d make even less progress. Just because we knew there were some problems with the naming of the degrees doesn’t mean it’s wise to sacrifice the education, overall experience, or work toward a solution.

Right now, Career Services says on resumes and CVs the appropriate way to list an Extension Degree is: Harvard Extension School, ALM in Extension Studies (or Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies), Field: English in its online publishings and official documents. The problem is with the way scanning software works for jobs, this degree may not be recognized at all as a degree, let alone one from Harvard when scanned by AI. Additionally, no one knows what Extension Studies means, and if you don’t follow the rules people assume you’re a fraud or being disingenuous. Some people do try this- but the numbers of those people are rare. Also, a degree from Harvard Extension School is not a crimson letter- people have gone on to Oxford, University of Chicago, MIT, and other elite schools with their HES degrees.

Additionally, ALM means Master’s of Liberal Arts. This is not accurate because HES offers more than liberal arts degrees. HES has offered degrees in Data Science, Management, Engineering, and Cybersecurity. However, like I said, other schools have rules. Therefore, changing the name to a Masters of Science can get the degrees confused with other schools at Harvard. There was an initiative to change the degree names to Professional Studies some years ago, but the initiative failed.

“These students knew what the degree name was going to be, but they attended anyway thinking that having Harvard on their resumes would make them more competitive.” In my experience, having a Harvard degree in progress on my resume has made me more competitive, though. It has helped a great deal just even studying there.

“They're not paying Harvard tuition though. HES is discounted.”- They are discounted- to an extent. Right now, one graduate class will set you back $3,100. I wouldn’t call that cheap. It’s certainly a far cry away from the initial mission of the Extension School- to provide lessons at the cost of two bushels of wheat and no more than that. I don’t know about you- but that’s more I paid in tuition than anywhere else I’ve attended including Kennesaw State University, Charter Oak State College, Northwestern California School of Law, Golden Gate University, O.P. Jindal Global University, and even ASU- and I’ve attended them all. HES is discounted for certain people. If you work at Harvard in any capacity- you’re allowed to get HES class for FORTY DOLLARS EACH! Talk about a steal. What does it say about people to look down on a school they attend that actually caters to their own teachers and staff that serves them on a daily basis on campus?

“Harvard's acceptance rate is under 5% … Harvard Extension's acceptance rate is 100%”- This is not true. One man even attempted to sue Harvard Extension for refusing to accept him. He lied about already having a degree, which disqualified him from the program he was interested in. Unwilling to take a no, he sued and lost. Any one can pay to take a class at Harvard. There is an application process for degree programs. The undergraduate and graduate admissions are different. Since I’m in graduate school, I’ll focus on this process, specifically in the field of English.

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If you review my transcripts, you’ll see I got a B in ProSeminar. That is the mandatory course for English majors. It’s the only B I got, which is the lowest score you can get, and what we like to call a Harvard “F”. At the Graduate level, anything less than a B- will not be included on your transcript for credit and tank your GPA. I also had to take two additional English classes and score a B or higher in order to be ABLE TO APPLY FOR ADMISSION. At the time, each graduate course was $2980 (it’s $3100 now). You have to pay for those three classes out of pocket, and get the scores. If you get the scores, then you can apply and hope for the best. If you can’t pay the costs upfront and do well, you’re done for. You also have to have a 3.0 or higher in those 3 or 4 concentration courses required to be able to apply. THEN, if you get past those requirements, you can apply for admission.

Many people take a course of two at Harvard Extension. Few are enrolled in full-on degree programs. Those who finish those requirements and pay out of pocket and get in end up being around 32% of the applicants. Different programs have different graduation rates. I just now logged into my Harvard Career Services website to get the exact graduation stats for every program on the graduate level and will list them below:

Biology- 72%
Bioengineering and Nanotechnology- 77%
Digital Media Design-88%
Creative Writing and Literature- 73%
English- 73%
Finance- 91%
Information Management Systems- 81%
Journalism- 85%
Management- 95%
Mathematics for Teaching- 95%
Museum Studies- 78%
Psychology- 52%
Software Engineering- 80%
Sustainability/Global Development Practice- 90%

Not all programs are created equal. For example, Psychology is usually labeled an “easy” degree, but it’s by far one of the most brutal at HES with the lowest graduation rate. Additionally, HES offers some programs that aren’t available at other schools. Harvard University overall doesn’t have a journalism program. Anyone interested in journalism could only study the subject at HES. Because there is not a journalism department/school, many professors for that particular program though are not Harvard professors directly.


“The Extension School is to get those who can't get in the front door”- But the average age of an Extension Student (most are graduate students) is 33. So, how does that work? We’re hardly trying to pass ourselves off as idealistic, bright-eyed 18 year olds. Most Extension students didn’t apply to “Harvard Proper” in their undergraduate eras, statistically. Backdoor implies this is the easy way in. These classes are expensive, difficult, time-consuming, and work-intensive. My extension classes were harder than classes I took at HGSE or at the Kennedy School. Don’t think these classes are easy. The washout number is high. Less than 1 percent of all people who attend Extension ever graduate.


“Actually, Harvard could rename the 'Extension School' to 'Executive School.'”- No they could not, because the term Executive is regularly used by the Business School and the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard for their certificate courses that sometimes carry alumni status. They are called executive programs. The name change would cause a great deal of confusion. It’s the same reason why the HES school offers an ALM in Management and not a MBA- it’s in direct conflict with the Business School and runs the risk of false impersonation. It’s not entirely wrong that it would anger the alumni base. 12 degree granting schools, many of which have students from wealthy backgrounds. Irritating the college or other schools could lead to fewer donations to Harvard overall, so while academically accurate degrees are important, and most people agree there are naming problems, there are many schools and naming situations to consider. That’s part of the problem.

“Would it be misrepresentation if you wrote "Masters Degree" on your CV and mentioned data science as your field of study?” According to Career Services, yes. It would also make employers who specifically are seeking someone from the college mad. They may feel deceived and them boom- whether you intended to be a fraud or not- all extension students are then given a bad rep.

“But if an employer does a background check, Harvard will say your degree is this:
"Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies""- This is correct. Now, many schools are using CE Credentials to validate degrees.Diplomas are given physically and electronically. The electronic ones have codes that can verify what you earned. It does just say Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies.



“HES admits people that Harvard won't. They're also not paying the same tuition.”- No one at any of the 12 Harvard degree-granting schools pays the same tuition. Literally every school charges different tuition costs for different programs, even among the 12 degree granting schools at Harvard. HES admits people that Harvard won’t. - That Harvard what won’t? The College? The average age of an extension student is 33. They didn’t apply to the college in the past usually and wouldn’t apply to the college now. Several graduates of Harvard Extension have and continue to go on to other graduate schools for additional degrees, like the Graduate School of Education or the Kennedy School, so it’s not accurate to say HES students wouldn’t be admitted elsewhere. Several students come to HES at the graduate level after graduating from other Ivy League Schools. Our current HESA President graduated from NYU in undergrad.

“Shouldn't everyone who applies and is admitted to HES be counted in Harvard's overall admittance rate - therefore changing their 2% claim?”- This is the undergraduate admission rate that only takes into account numbers for the Harvard College. All 12 other schools on Harvard campus have varying acceptance rates for their programs.

“They do use many of the same instructors but I do not think the Harvard College students generally attend HES courses.”- We use the vast majority of the same instructors as Harvard College or the other graduate schools. Most professors are Harvard professors. Admitted students can search for classes satisfying their degree requirements and magnify the search to be specific and only choose Harvard professors. For my program, at least 8 of the 12 classes in my Master’s program must be taught by a Harvard professor. The course search list does designate who is a Harvard professor and who is not. Many students choose to take all of their classes with Harvard professors.

Amid Covid, many Harvard College students did take their mandatory required classes through the Extension School, and the appreciation for the Extension School has grown quite a bit, because we were all banned from being on campus. Therefore, distance learning became essential. Harvard College students were given equivalency lists to help satisfy their requirements for their undergraduate degrees. Any Harvard College student who didn’t drop out amid the pandemic and continued to take classes from 2019- early 2022 did it through the Extension School. Just saying. Some of the rhetoric about us being not real Harvard died down a bit around then.

“At HES, you pick up the the same ID as all other students from the same Smith Center. You get the same access to all the buildings, libraries, facilities, student centers, meal plans, dining halls (except the first-year only Mem) etc etc as any other Harvard grad student. HES students are eligible for clubs, club-level athletics and recreation. I've participated in a few club sports with kids from all over the world. It was a great experience.”- This is 100% correct. You get access to everything any other Harvard student has access to.

This is my response to the first four pages. For page 5, I will elaborate about ASU (where I also currently study) and the attitude toward extension more after a nap. It’s been a long day!