Diploma Mills

[dfrecore]

Why?  What makes you any better at determining what makes a good degree plan for EVERYONE than a body of people setting the standards?  Why would your way be the better one?

I think that having different standards for different degrees makes total sense.  Why does a communications major need Calculus?  Why would an English degree need it?  Or a degree in HR?

Basically, you're saying that if you're not good at math, then you shouldn't be able to get a decent job, even if that job doesn't require the level of math that YOU think someone should have.  It makes no sense.

I am just saying I believe a UNIVERSITY education should not be about acquiring work skills, but rather a liberal education, and it should be rigorous. Trade skills should be picked up at other institutions. I completely agree that different specialties should have different requirements. If you want to crunch numbers for a living, or at least want to have credentials that show the world you can do that particular thing well, then it does not make sense for you to have to take 2 rounds of history, 2 rounds of biology, a couple of PE classes, and all that other mess they make you go through. What a waste  

I studied a range of subjects at a B&M. I loved it. BUT, it really was cheap then, and I wasn't committed to any particular career path. I just wanted to see what was out there. It's too costly to do that the traditional way these days.

This may be a dumb question, but when has calculus been the standard for rigor?  I understand it's required for some majors, but at what point in our history was it required for ALL majors?  And at what schools?  Like, was it at one time required at Harvard, or Yale, or Stanford?

I just think it's a bit arbitrary for you to say "I personally think that calculus should be required for everyone who wants to be considered well-rounded" but not be able to say when other prestigious universities known for rigorous standards had this as a requirement.

And I'm reading on the history of Harvard curriculum, and they didn't even OFFER calculus until the late 1800's.  So if they weren't offering it, then they certainly weren't requiring it at that point.

[Bibby]

Having a basic grasp of calculus can be helpful, but the majority of people, even well-educated professionals with good-paying jobs, are never going to need a deep understanding of derivatives and integrals to succeed in their daily lives. Many students struggle with advanced math - they're doing good to tackle intermediate algebra - and requiring students to take calculus would prevent many students from being able to graduate.

If there's a math class that all students would benefit from taking, it's Elementary Statistics. Many people graduate having very little understanding of probability and other fundamentals, and statistics is something we use every day, whether we realize it or not.

[cookderosa]

there will always be those who believe the barriers should be higher - that someone believes that AND landed here is confusing. Still... As someone who worked for 2 decades in the OPEN ENROLLMENT community college system, I assure you that there are plenty of barriers to completion, calculus notwithstanding.
If the argument is for a 4-year university to make *their* requirements more demanding, go for it. It's easy enough to land a job in a position of power to implement your ideas.

[StoicJ]

there will always be those who believe the barriers should be higher - that someone believes that AND landed here is confusing. Still... As someone who worked for 2 decades in the OPEN ENROLLMENT community college system, I assure you that there are plenty of barriers to completion, calculus notwithstanding.
If the argument is for a 4-year university to make *their* requirements more demanding, go for it. It's easy enough to land a job in a position of power to implement your ideas.

A much different curriculum to get a UNIVERSITY degree. Different institutions offer credentials in areas of specialty, and a curriculum that is much more focused on those specialties. Not pushing for a change in the system, just stating what I WISH were the case.

I am happy to do as little as possible to receive my degrees, within certain parameters. I do not see that as shirking in any way, I see it as smart. I have education goals, and schooling goals. It is nice when they mesh, but that is not often the case.

[cookderosa]

there will always be those who believe the barriers should be higher - that someone believes that AND landed here is confusing. Still... As someone who worked for 2 decades in the OPEN ENROLLMENT community college system, I assure you that there are plenty of barriers to completion, calculus notwithstanding.
If the argument is for a 4-year university to make *their* requirements more demanding, go for it. It's easy enough to land a job in a position of power to implement your ideas.

A much different curriculum to get a UNIVERSITY degree. Different institutions offer credentials in areas of specialty, and a curriculum that is much more focused on those specialties. Not pushing for a change in the system, just stating what I WISH were the case.

Huh? TESU is a university.
The argument was made that everyone with a degree from a university should have to pass Calculus 1 (which is what I replied to- see quote). I think I need to go wash my hair.

[StoicJ]

I am saying universities and colleges should be different. Universities for a liberal education, colleges for more focused studies. Universities for the mind, colleges for career development and credentials. One would not be considered better than the other, as they would serve very different functions.

No, I am not going to dedicate any part of my life to trying to change what is. I do not care that much. I simply said earlier that I think to be called a university the institution should require calculus. That´s not to say that in the history of the USA that has ever been the case, or that Harvard College ever had such requirements (hell, Harvard College may have been around longer than modern calculus for all I know), or that a person who does not know calculus is not intelligent or not well-educated. I also was not wanting to derail the discussion, the calculus thing was just an aside. Not saying a degree has no value if the student does not study calculus.

[clep3705]

Harvard College may have been around longer than modern calculus for all I know

Harvard was established in 1636. Newton's calculus was published in 1671. Leibniz's calculus was published in 1675.

[mamalbh]

I read through all of this, and I guess I have a different point of view than most.

I have always been an autodidact. I love doing new things, and whenever I need to learn something I seek out a way to do so. I have raised my children to do the same, and they are always amazing me with what they have taught themselves.

I have worked with some very educated people... people with masters and PhDs. And, for the most part, I am not impressed. They did traditional schooling, got decent grades, and their diplomas - spent years of their lives and boatloads of money. But, they retained very little and, most importantly, never learned how to learn. I only have completed an AAS in Computer Science and there have been SO MANY times I have had to coach the "IT person" with a BS degree or higher on how to fix something, even things I have never dealt with before. Why? Because I am able to seek out and use information without someone holding my hand or leading me down the path.

I want my children to have at least a bachelors... simply for that piece of paper that will get them in the door. There are indeed some classes they will take that will be pertinent to their future careers that I want them to slow down and absorb as much as they can. But for the most part, it is all just to satisfy degree snobs who are the gate keepers at big companies. I'm not worried about them not knowing something they need to know. They have been raised to solve problems and seek out answers on their own. There are many resources they use that are free and they learn so much from, but they don't "count" for anything. Not to mention that most degrees don't really "line-up" with a specific job. Different companies have different policies and ways of doing things, so on-the-job training is the norm regardless of education or experience.

If I were looking at hiring person A with a traditional degree or person B who worked his butt off and got that same degree in one-fourth of the time, I'd go with person B hands down. I'd much rather have a self-starter & hard worker.

Basically, it all boils down to this:
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." -commonly attributed to Mark Twain

[HistoryMaker]

I'm pretty sure this particular conversation has come up a lot over the years. The social expectation from a bachelor is 4 years spent "butt in seat" at an average university. When you tell someone you acquire your degree in another way you can get a range of reactions, from thinking that it is actually pretty cool, to someone being pissed off because he did put 4 years and now feel cheated off.

To be honest, I had a hard time understanding macroeconomics and applied accounting material over at study.com, I still passed the course and the exam on the first try. No way this would have happened in a normal class setting. All of this isn't stopping me from earning A's currently in my capstone.

This degree may help you in many ways, but you need to understand what you are getting and how to play its strengths and weaknesses.

I cannot stay around for very long due to time pressures, however, most people who are sensible are not putting their butts in a seat, but putting their work on their computer page. I have attended the University of Toledo, Southern New Hampshire University, and a few others before I had the opportunity to finish at this time. My daughter, who is attending Franklin University in our own town, is completing her MBA entirely online. She had also graduated from the University of Toledo and the only time she, one of my sons who attended, and I had to step in was for graduation. On another occasion when we lived in Toledo, my daughter utilized the library for a test. Whether you attended courses live via technology at Harvard (who does that now, too, with some courses as well as has classes entirely online), Franklin University, UT, or any other place,  or if your work is primarily  or completely online, it is still studies - sometimes, it is more intense. Thus, if anyone asks the question again, let them know that you are maximizing the use of your schedule by doing your work close to home in this new age of the Internet. For those of us who have vast undocumented knowledge, testing out is the best way to go. I am proud of you for your tenacity to finish your degree.

[cookderosa]

I'm pretty sure this particular conversation has come up a lot over the years. The social expectation from a bachelor is 4 years spent "butt in seat" at an average university. When you tell someone you acquire your degree in another way you can get a range of reactions, from thinking that it is actually pretty cool, to someone being pissed off because he did put 4 years and now feel cheated off.

To be honest, I had a hard time understanding macroeconomics and applied accounting material over at study.com, I still passed the course and the exam on the first try. No way this would have happened in a normal class setting. All of this isn't stopping me from earning A's currently in my capstone.

This degree may help you in many ways, but you need to understand what you are getting and how to play its strengths and weaknesses.

I cannot stay around for very long due to time pressures, however, most people who are sensible are not putting their butts in a seat, but putting their work on their computer page. I have attended the University of Toledo, Southern New Hampshire University, and a few others before I had the opportunity to finish at this time. My daughter, who is attending Franklin University in our own town, is completing her MBA entirely online. She had also graduated from the University of Toledo and the only time she, one of my sons who attended, and I had to step in was for graduation. On another occasion when we lived in Toledo, my daughter utilized the library for a test. Whether you attended courses live via technology at Harvard (who does that now, too, with some courses as well as has classes entirely online), Franklin University, UT, or any other place,  or if your work is primarily  or completely online, it is still studies - sometimes, it is more intense. Thus, if anyone asks the question again, let them know that you are maximizing the use of your schedule by doing your work close to home in this new age of the Internet. For those of us who have vast undocumented knowledge, testing out is the best way to go. I am proud of you for your tenacity to finish your degree.

I have 2 sons starting at Franklin in August (and I'm trying to convince a 3rd). If you have any advice, I'd love to hear it.