Degree Revoke

[clep3705]

Academic fraud as an applicant can be either claiming things you didn't do or withholding things you did do. As I've posted before, I still have trouble with that. Claiming you took a prerequisite you didn't clearly is fraud. But is it really fraud to actually meet all of the requirements of admission while withholding that you made an F before you did your good academic work? Academic fresh start programs essentially do that.

[sanantone]

Academic fraud as an applicant can be either claiming things you didn't do or withholding things you did do. As I've posted before, I still have trouble with that. Claiming you took a prerequisite you didn't clearly is fraud. But is it really fraud to actually meet all of the requirements of admission while withholding that you made an F before you did your good academic work? Academic fresh start programs essentially do that.

It's lying by omission. Yes, it is fraud because that "F" could change your GPA. If you're confident that you meet the requirements, then why would you hide an "F?" You can't operate your own academic fresh start program. It's an official process you go through, and you have to give up all your prior credits. You can't just pick and choose what you want to include.

[clep3705]

I understand your reasoning and concede your logic and example are excellent. Technically it is fraud. But it's not criminal fraud. I know people who have failed to send all transcripts when applying to universities. They've done well. They've contributed to society. I fail to see the actual harm to society or even the schools involved. I do see it is an affront to people who love rules and policies more than social pragmatism.

I've always sent all transcripts including a really bad one. I've been lucky. Four times I've been admitted to competitive academic programs. Don't jump to the conclusion my experiences prove it is best to reveal everything. In three cases I eventually found out that because my pile of transcripts was so thick, only the two or three most recent ones were actually looked at. I absolutely would not have gotten my life changing academic admission if the bad transcript had actually been reviewed by the admissions staff. I got my first job because I asked to start the day after final exams ended for me, before my degree was conferred. Because of this, the interviewers and hiring managers never were forwarded my transcripts because human resources only forwarded complete transcript packets and the last transcript was still pending when I started work. Once my pile of transcripts was complete, since I was already hired, they were filed without having been reviewed. I've been lucky. I'm grateful for the good luck I've had. Not everyone will be as lucky as me. I understand why some choose to withhold transcripts and I would take their side in a civil proceeding. That's what my heart tells me.

[cookderosa]

Somewhere along the line, it's a good idea to READ ALL THE WORDS on your college application and graduation forms. Without even looking, I'll bet the answer is there.

[sanantone]

I understand your reasoning and concede your logic and example are excellent. Technically it is fraud. But it's not criminal fraud. I know people who have failed to send all transcripts when applying to universities. They've done well. They've contributed to society. I fail to see the actual harm to society or even the schools involved. I do see it is an affront to people who love rules and policies more than social pragmatism.

I've always sent all transcripts including a really bad one. I've been lucky. Four times I've been admitted to competitive academic programs. Don't jump to the conclusion my experiences prove it is best to reveal everything. In three cases I eventually found out that because my pile of transcripts was so thick, only the two or three most recent ones were actually looked at. I absolutely would not have gotten my life changing academic admission if the bad transcript had actually been reviewed by the admissions staff. I got my first job because I asked to start the day after final exams ended for me, before my degree was conferred. Because of this, the interviewers and hiring managers never were forwarded my transcripts because human resources only forwarded complete transcript packets and the last transcript was still pending when I started work. Once my pile of transcripts was complete, since I was already hired, they were filed without having been reviewed. I've been lucky. I'm grateful for the good luck I've had. Not everyone will be as lucky as me. I understand why some choose to withhold transcripts and I would take their side in a civil proceeding. That's what my heart tells me.

It's harmful to other applicants for competitive programs. If you got in based on a 3.5 GPA when you really have a 2.9 GPA and ended up taking the spot of others who worked hard for higher GPAs, then you did cause social harm.

I always submit all my bad grades when applying to programs, and I would be angry if someone were chosen over me because he or she decided to be dishonest. I didn't get into two public health doctoral programs, and I'm fine with that as long as more deserving candidates got in. However, I would be extremely upset if I had been beaten out by someone who lied because this led me down the path of earning a doctorate in CJ instead, which was not my first choice. In just about every profession, honesty and integrity are important. I would not feel comfortable relying on co-workers in my field who would lie to that extent and think it's ethical.

[High_Order1]

OP, I understand your question.

It's an interesting thought experiment.

You've already basically answered your own question. There needs to be legislation in the authority having jurisdiction over that school if they pursue it that way.

They could also potentially pursue it under contract law: you and they enter into an agreement. They confer one of their degrees upon you in consideration of multiple things, one of them being your adherence to their code of conduct.

You being found culpable of not doing that puts you in breach, and could possibly allow them to rescind.

Best answer would be to do as others have hinted and hit westlaw for previous examples. Clearly, it's not common, or else simple google keywording would have found you ample results, no?

[rlw74]

The variables to answer this question are too many to give an exact answer without specifics.

However, the main thing is, schools don't need a criminal law to revoke a degree. They have written standards that essentially act as a contract between themselves and their students. In addition, if they are accredited they will already have some kind of outside agency providing oversight and reviewing their standards for degree conferral. Fraud, plagiarism, omission on an application for admission - all of these *can* give a university the right to revoke a degree that was earned fraudulently - if its in their written policies. With that said, I highly doubt they police every graduate who walks out their door. However, if they have a student in a residency about to graduate medical school and it comes to their attention that the student didn't actually meet program requirements because they lied or forged their transcripts they most certainly can and will revoke the degree that would have been conferred.

Some industries are highly regulated and given oversight by state or federal agencies. Think medical, law, insurance or real estate where you have to obtain a license. You might not have your degree revoked by any school but your license can be revoked by the state if fraud took place. You can be barred from working in that field in the future.

If in doubt, always best to disclose everything because you never know where it can come up - with an educational institution, with a state licensing agencies or with an employer down the road - any of which may ask for transcripts or run background checks. My husband just took a job last year where he had to provide certified copies of his college transcripts from 20+ years ago. Do you really want to be in a high-profile job decades from now and have to worry about what might show up on a transcript years later? Better to get whatever it is fixed now.

[a2jc4life]

I think they'd have a hard time revoking a degree for something that happened *after* graduation -- and having that stand up in court.

In terms of not omitting an F on a transcript...I honestly think that depends. I have, for instance, 2 credits from almost 20 years ago in applied voice and applied violin. I don't have F's in either one, but it honestly almost didn't occur to me to submit that transcript, because it's two piddly classes that didn't seem particularly relevant. In fact, I'm not sure whether I submitted it when I applied at the school for my AAS or not -- those credits literally didn't apply anywhere in the degree program. I don't think it would have been "fraud" for me to have not sent that transcript over, even if I had an F in either or both of those classes. (I mean, how do they even prove that you intentionally omitted something and didn't just *forget* about it?) If, on the other hand, someone had 2 semesters worth of traditional undergrad someplace, and didn't submit it because it had some bad grades on it, that would seem much more suspect.

[sanantone]

I think they'd have a hard time revoking a degree for something that happened *after* graduation -- and having that stand up in court.

In terms of not omitting an F on a transcript...I honestly think that depends. I have, for instance, 2 credits from almost 20 years ago in applied voice and applied violin. I don't have F's in either one, but it honestly almost didn't occur to me to submit that transcript, because it's two piddly classes that didn't seem particularly relevant. In fact, I'm not sure whether I submitted it when I applied at the school for my AAS or not -- those credits literally didn't apply anywhere in the degree program. I don't think it would have been "fraud" for me to have not sent that transcript over, even if I had an F in either or both of those classes. (I mean, how do they even prove that you intentionally omitted something and didn't just *forget* about it?) If, on the other hand, someone had 2 semesters worth of traditional undergrad someplace, and didn't submit it because it had some bad grades on it, that would seem much more suspect.

It's a pretty clear statement that is not open for interpretation when a school tells you to list and send transcripts for every school attended. The only gray area is whether or not they want transcripts for a school you didn't attend, but earned credits at (TECEP, Uexcel, CSU Global CBE, etc.).

When you apply to correctional or law enforcement jobs, and they ask you to list every school attended, they're not going to accept, "I only took two courses at this school, so I didn't think I had to list it." You've shown that you're either dishonest or have poor reading comprehension skills and are incapable of following directions. When I wasn't sure, I asked a recruiter if I needed to list schools where I wasn't a matriculated student and only took a course/test/PLA for transfer.

[a2jc4life]

I think they'd have a hard time revoking a degree for something that happened *after* graduation -- and having that stand up in court.

In terms of not omitting an F on a transcript...I honestly think that depends.  I have, for instance, 2 credits from almost 20 years ago in applied voice and applied violin.  I don't have F's in either one, but it honestly almost didn't occur to me to submit that transcript, because it's two piddly classes that didn't seem particularly relevant. In fact, I'm not sure whether I submitted it when I applied at the school for my AAS or not -- those credits literally didn't apply anywhere in the degree program.  I don't think it would have been "fraud" for me to have not sent that transcript over, even if I had an F in either or both of those classes.  (I mean, how do they even prove that you intentionally omitted something and didn't just *forget* about it?)  If, on the other hand, someone had 2 semesters worth of traditional undergrad someplace, and didn't submit it because it had some bad grades on it, that would seem much more suspect.

It's a pretty clear statement that is not open for interpretation when a school tells you to list and send transcripts for every school attended. The only gray area is whether or not they want transcripts for a school you didn't attend, but earned credits at (TECEP, Uexcel, CSU Global CBE, etc.).

When you apply to correctional or law enforcement jobs, and they ask you to list every school attended, they're not going to accept, "I only took two courses at this school, so I didn't think I had to list it." You've shown that you're either dishonest or have poor reading comprehension skills and are incapable of following directions. When I wasn't sure, I asked a recruiter if I needed to list schools where I wasn't a matriculated student and only took a course/test/PLA for transfer.

If they specify that, then sure.  (Although I'm still not sure how they'd demonstrate whether you omitted something intentionally or just forgot.  Or requested it from the school and they dropped it through the cracks and you didn't notice.)  It seems like a law enforcement-type job would find it more important to have every single one on file, regardless of relevance, than most other fields.  Kind of a form of background check.