Bennett Hypothesis: Financial Aid Increases Tuition

[Tedium]

That is unfortunate. But when I was 16/17, before I got a real job, I worked at some grocery stores/big lots, and saw adults working (but not very many). It was sad to have a 40 year old man working beside you making 8 dollars an hour. Made me want to learn some real skills after high school. Luckily I did.

I was 18 when I was hired as a supervisor over people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. The assistant manager didn't trust any of her current employees to be supervisors. Fast food employees are...different.

Ain't that the truth. My first job was food service and I've steered clear ever since. No one needs that stress and hassle in their life. And that's coming from someone who manages a hotel.

[dfrecore]

We're too good to pick fruit, but a Mexican immigrant isn't?  That sounds a bit racist to me.  I know you aren't, but if you listen to your words, it could certainly be consrtued that way.

How can it be construed that way? It's very simple. Americans don't want to work out in the hot sun. That says nothing about Americans being "too good" to work out in the hot sun. They might think they are too good for those jobs, but I don't think they are. I've worked 12-hour shifts out in the hot sun. That statement actually implies that Americans are kind of lazy and don't like to get dirty. No offense, but "do jobs Americans don't want to do" is a common phrase, so anyone who watches the news or pays attention to politics periodically knows what that statement means. It would only be misconstrued as racist through poor comprehension.

How much an employer pays is also limited by how much customers are willing to pay. Taxpayers in Texas want people locked up, but they don't want to pay corrections officers $40k per year. McDonald's customers don't want to pay $5 for a double cheeseburger that usually costs $1.50 or $2.

---

It's easy to construe it that way - and yes, I think when people say it on TV or in the media, they are being racist as well.  It goes along with "the soft bigotry of low expectations."

There are PLENTY of Americans who work in the outdoors all day, every day.  My dad was a lineman, and worked outside 40+ hours a week for 30 years.  115 degrees, or pouring rain at midnight in 30 degrees, and everything in between.  I have great-aunts and uncles who picked cotton alongside their parents for many, many years, because they owned a farm and did the work that needed to be done. Construction workers work outside.  Loggers work outside.  Farmers work outside.  All kinds of people work outside, and PREFER it to working inside.  The difference is, the ones that do it happily are paid a decent wage.  The problem with agricultural work is that Americans won't do manual labor for a pittance.  If the market was allowed to work, the wages would go up until there were Americans willing to do the work, and prices would go up accordingly.  Or AI would take over part of the work. OR we could get workers to come in on limited work visas to do the work.  OR, there wouldn't be enough workers to do the work, for the price buyers were willing to pay, and those crops would go away.  We'd either have to start paying more, or buy those fruits/veggies from somewhere else.  That is how the free market works.

But you can't flood the market with illegals willing to work for FAR less than a wage citizens are willing to work for, depressing wages permanently, and then say that Americans are lazy.  That is just not true.

As for customers not willing to pay the price - you don't actually know how much the people of Texas are willing to pay for locking up prisoners, because they aren't given the choice.  You personally would choose to pay them more.  Just look at CA, where corrections officers are paid WAY more than market, and it costs more than twice the national average to house an inmate.  I don't think we should be paying that much for our prisons, but the CA government, led by unions, has decided that this is reasonable.  As a fiscal conservative, I don't agree, but I don't really get a say.  You don't get a say in your government either.  Neither of these is representative of the free market.

[videogamesrock]

The security guard that just checked my key tag at my pool works in the sun 40-48 hours a week, he says to tell you he doesn’t mind it.

[sanantone]

We're too good to pick fruit, but a Mexican immigrant isn't?  That sounds a bit racist to me.  I know you aren't, but if you listen to your words, it could certainly be consrtued that way.

How can it be construed that way? It's very simple. Americans don't want to work out in the hot sun. That says nothing about Americans being "too good" to work out in the hot sun. They might think they are too good for those jobs, but I don't think they are. I've worked 12-hour shifts out in the hot sun. That statement actually implies that Americans are kind of lazy and don't like to get dirty. No offense, but "do jobs Americans don't want to do" is a common phrase, so anyone who watches the news or pays attention to politics periodically knows what that statement means. It would only be misconstrued as racist through poor comprehension.

How much an employer pays is also limited by how much customers are willing to pay. Taxpayers in Texas want people locked up, but they don't want to pay corrections officers $40k per year. McDonald's customers don't want to pay $5 for a double cheeseburger that usually costs $1.50 or $2.

---

It's easy to construe it that way - and yes, I think when people say it on TV or in the media, they are being racist as well.  It goes along with "the soft bigotry of low expectations."

There are PLENTY of Americans who work in the outdoors all day, every day.  My dad was a lineman, and worked outside 40+ hours a week for 30 years.  115 degrees, or pouring rain at midnight in 30 degrees, and everything in between.  I have great-aunts and uncles who picked cotton alongside their parents for many, many years, because they owned a farm and did the work that needed to be done. Construction workers work outside.  Loggers work outside.  Farmers work outside.  All kinds of people work outside, and PREFER it to working inside.  The difference is, the ones that do it happily are paid a decent wage.  The problem with agricultural work is that Americans won't do manual labor for a pittance.  If the market was allowed to work, the wages would go up until there were Americans willing to do the work, and prices would go up accordingly.  Or AI would take over part of the work. OR we could get workers to come in on limited work visas to do the work.  OR, there wouldn't be enough workers to do the work, for the price buyers were willing to pay, and those crops would go away.  We'd either have to start paying more, or buy those fruits/veggies from somewhere else.  That is how the free market works.

But you can't flood the market with illegals willing to work for FAR less than a wage citizens are willing to work for, depressing wages permanently, and then say that Americans are lazy.  That is just not true.

As for customers not willing to pay the price - you don't actually know how much the people of Texas are willing to pay for locking up prisoners, because they aren't given the choice.  You personally would choose to pay them more.  Just look at CA, where corrections officers are paid WAY more than market, and it costs more than twice the national average to house an inmate.  I don't think we should be paying that much for our prisons, but the CA government, led by unions, has decided that this is reasonable.  As a fiscal conservative, I don't agree, but I don't really get a say.  You don't get a say in your government either.  Neither of these is representative of the free market.

Soft bigotry of low expectations? No one is saying that Mexicans are only capable of doing manual labor. I didn't even mention Mexicans, you did. For you to automatically think of Mexicans when illegal immigration and blue collar jobs are brought up displays your own biases and views about Mexicans. Over the past couple of hundred years, we have had waves of immigrants from different regions of the world. Mexicans are not the only ones who have been in this position. Even now, we have many undocumented immigrants from Asia and Central America.

Historically, unskilled immigrants who didn't have many options due to not knowing the language and not having a high skill took what they could get. The next generation usually knew English and had some schooling, so they did better. A few generations removed, people tend to have higher aspirations than doing low-paying, unskilled jobs. There's nothing wrong with that. That is what the American dream is supposed to be. Millions of immigrants work hard so that their children can have better. If you think that is low expectations, then that shows what you truly think of blue collar labor. 

My only issue is that, when jobs are scarce, too many Americans would rather let their unemployment run out than take what they can get. When people couldn't find jobs during the recession, I directed them to companies that were hiring just to be ignored. Some people would rather be homeless than take a job they think is beneath them.

People get a say in how much corrections officers make. After Perry said that COs are glorified, overpaid babysitters, he was reelected. People knew that CPS had serious issues mostly caused by a high turnover rate, but they continued to vote for the same politicians who refused to increase salaries for decades. They prioritized other things over the safety of children. That was their choice.

---

The security guard that just checked my key tag at my pool works in the sun 40-48 hours a week, he says to tell you he doesn’t mind it.

LOL. Nice anecdote. If so many people loved doing security, the industry wouldn't have such a high turnover rate and shortage of workers. I worked security for many years, so your goofy story means nothing. Illegal immigrants can't take those jobs, by the way. It's a licensed field.

[alexf.1990]

[quote pid='263795' dateline='1530304593']

---

It's easy to construe it that way - and yes, I think when people say it on TV or in the media, they are being racist as well.  It goes along with "the soft bigotry of low expectations."

There are PLENTY of Americans who work in the outdoors all day, every day.  My dad was a lineman, and worked outside 40+ hours a week for 30 years.  115 degrees, or pouring rain at midnight in 30 degrees, and everything in between.  I have great-aunts and uncles who picked cotton alongside their parents for many, many years, because they owned a farm and did the work that needed to be done. Construction workers work outside.  Loggers work outside.  Farmers work outside.  All kinds of people work outside, and PREFER it to working inside.  The difference is, the ones that do it happily are paid a decent wage.  The problem with agricultural work is that Americans won't do manual labor for a pittance.  If the market was allowed to work, the wages would go up until there were Americans willing to do the work, and prices would go up accordingly.  Or AI would take over part of the work. OR we could get workers to come in on limited work visas to do the work.  OR, there wouldn't be enough workers to do the work, for the price buyers were willing to pay, and those crops would go away.  We'd either have to start paying more, or buy those fruits/veggies from somewhere else.  That is how the free market works.

But you can't flood the market with illegals willing to work for FAR less than a wage citizens are willing to work for, depressing wages permanently, and then say that Americans are lazy.  That is just not true.

As for customers not willing to pay the price - you don't actually know how much the people of Texas are willing to pay for locking up prisoners, because they aren't given the choice.  You personally would choose to pay them more.  Just look at CA, where corrections officers are paid WAY more than market, and it costs more than twice the national average to house an inmate.  I don't think we should be paying that much for our prisons, but the CA government, led by unions, has decided that this is reasonable.  As a fiscal conservative, I don't agree, but I don't really get a say.  You don't get a say in your government either.  Neither of these is representative of the free market.

Soft bigotry of low expectations? No one is saying that Mexicans are only capable of doing manual labor. I didn't even mention Mexicans, you did. For you to automatically think of Mexicans when illegal immigration and blue collar jobs are brought up displays your own biases and views about Mexicans. Over the past couple of hundred years, we have had waves of immigrants from different regions of the world. Mexicans are not the only ones who have been in this position. Even now, we have many undocumented immigrants from Asia and Central America.

Historically, unskilled immigrants who didn't have many options due to not knowing the language and not having a high skill took what they could get. The next generation usually knew English and had some schooling, so they did better. A few generations removed, people tend to have higher aspirations than doing low-paying, unskilled jobs. There's nothing wrong with that. That is what the American dream is supposed to be. Millions of immigrants work hard so that their children can have better. If you think that is low expectations, then that shows what you truly think of blue collar labor. 

My only issue is that, when jobs are scarce, too many Americans would rather let their unemployment run out than take what they can get. When people couldn't find jobs during the recession, I directed them to companies that were hiring just to be ignored. Some people would rather be homeless than take a job they think is beneath them.

People get a say in how much corrections officers make. After Perry said that COs are glorified, overpaid babysitters, he was reelected. People knew that CPS had serious issues mostly caused by a high turnover rate, but they continued to vote for the same politicians who refused to increase salaries for decades. They prioritized other things over the safety of children. That was their choice.

---

The security guard that just checked my key tag at my pool works in the sun 40-48 hours a week, he says to tell you he doesn’t mind it.

LOL. Nice anecdote. If so many people loved doing security, the industry wouldn't have such a high turnover rate and shortage of workers. I worked security for many years, so your goofy story means nothing. Illegal immigrants can't take those jobs, by the way. It's a licensed field.
[/quote]

Don't you see the ethical problem of importing millions of illegal immigrants to work in terrible conditions for next to nothing just so that we can save 3% on produce prices? If a crop can't be cultivated without labor that pays a fair wage, it shouldn't be produced. Immigration and outsourcing are two of the main market pressures keeping wages down for the working class. From both an economic and ethical perspective, its puzzling how anyone who cares about the working class could advocate for more immigrants (legal or otherwise).

The absurd argument that keeps being put out that "Americans won't do these jobs" is laughable. Americans do every job imaginable from cleaning septic tanks to working oil rigs. The problem is that Americans, rightfully, won't work long hours in terrible conditions for less than they can make at McDonalds.

[sanantone]

[quote pid='263795' dateline='1530304593']

---

It's easy to construe it that way - and yes, I think when people say it on TV or in the media, they are being racist as well.  It goes along with "the soft bigotry of low expectations."

There are PLENTY of Americans who work in the outdoors all day, every day.  My dad was a lineman, and worked outside 40+ hours a week for 30 years.  115 degrees, or pouring rain at midnight in 30 degrees, and everything in between.  I have great-aunts and uncles who picked cotton alongside their parents for many, many years, because they owned a farm and did the work that needed to be done. Construction workers work outside.  Loggers work outside.  Farmers work outside.  All kinds of people work outside, and PREFER it to working inside.  The difference is, the ones that do it happily are paid a decent wage.  The problem with agricultural work is that Americans won't do manual labor for a pittance.  If the market was allowed to work, the wages would go up until there were Americans willing to do the work, and prices would go up accordingly.  Or AI would take over part of the work. OR we could get workers to come in on limited work visas to do the work.  OR, there wouldn't be enough workers to do the work, for the price buyers were willing to pay, and those crops would go away.  We'd either have to start paying more, or buy those fruits/veggies from somewhere else.  That is how the free market works.

But you can't flood the market with illegals willing to work for FAR less than a wage citizens are willing to work for, depressing wages permanently, and then say that Americans are lazy.  That is just not true.

As for customers not willing to pay the price - you don't actually know how much the people of Texas are willing to pay for locking up prisoners, because they aren't given the choice.  You personally would choose to pay them more.  Just look at CA, where corrections officers are paid WAY more than market, and it costs more than twice the national average to house an inmate.  I don't think we should be paying that much for our prisons, but the CA government, led by unions, has decided that this is reasonable.  As a fiscal conservative, I don't agree, but I don't really get a say.  You don't get a say in your government either.  Neither of these is representative of the free market.

Soft bigotry of low expectations? No one is saying that Mexicans are only capable of doing manual labor. I didn't even mention Mexicans, you did. For you to automatically think of Mexicans when illegal immigration and blue collar jobs are brought up displays your own biases and views about Mexicans. Over the past couple of hundred years, we have had waves of immigrants from different regions of the world. Mexicans are not the only ones who have been in this position. Even now, we have many undocumented immigrants from Asia and Central America.

Historically, unskilled immigrants who didn't have many options due to not knowing the language and not having a high skill took what they could get. The next generation usually knew English and had some schooling, so they did better. A few generations removed, people tend to have higher aspirations than doing low-paying, unskilled jobs. There's nothing wrong with that. That is what the American dream is supposed to be. Millions of immigrants work hard so that their children can have better. If you think that is low expectations, then that shows what you truly think of blue collar labor. 

My only issue is that, when jobs are scarce, too many Americans would rather let their unemployment run out than take what they can get. When people couldn't find jobs during the recession, I directed them to companies that were hiring just to be ignored. Some people would rather be homeless than take a job they think is beneath them.

People get a say in how much corrections officers make. After Perry said that COs are glorified, overpaid babysitters, he was reelected. People knew that CPS had serious issues mostly caused by a high turnover rate, but they continued to vote for the same politicians who refused to increase salaries for decades. They prioritized other things over the safety of children. That was their choice.

---

The security guard that just checked my key tag at my pool works in the sun 40-48 hours a week, he says to tell you he doesn’t mind it.

LOL. Nice anecdote. If so many people loved doing security, the industry wouldn't have such a high turnover rate and shortage of workers. I worked security for many years, so your goofy story means nothing. Illegal immigrants can't take those jobs, by the way. It's a licensed field.

Don't you see the ethical problem of importing millions of illegal immigrants to work in terrible conditions for next to nothing just so that we can save 3% on produce prices? If a crop can't be cultivated without labor that pays a fair wage, it shouldn't be produced. Immigration and outsourcing are two of the main market pressures keeping wages down for the working class. From both an economic and ethical perspective, its puzzling how anyone who cares about the working class could advocate for more immigrants (legal or otherwise).

The absurd argument that keeps being put out that "Americans won't do these jobs" is laughable. Americans do every job imaginable from cleaning septic tanks to working oil rigs. The problem is that Americans, rightfully, won't work long hours in terrible conditions for less than they can make at McDonalds.
[/quote]

There are ethical issues, which is why the government should crack down on greedy companies. They'd rather go after people looking for better lives, and it's an inefficient way of enforcing immigration laws. They wouldn't come here if businesses didn't hire them. That's why illegal entry into the country decreased during the Great Recession. Some undocumented immigrants already in the country went home. The dotard wants to increase the number of skilled immigrants so that they can compete with Americans for good-paying jobs.

Oil rig jobs are popular among ex-felons for a reason. Whenever an industry hires a lot of felons, it's usually because they wouldn't have enough employees without them. Oil rig jobs pay very well, but the work is dirty, dangerous, and strenuous. Injury rates are high. Methamphetamine use is common among oil field workers. It's so bad that the substance abuse clients I had said they wouldn't go back because seeing people around them using would lead to relapse.

[alexf.1990]

There are ethical issues, which is why the government should crack down on greedy companies. They'd rather go after people looking for better lives, and it's an inefficient way of enforcing immigration laws. They wouldn't come here if businesses didn't hire them. That's why illegal entry into the country decreased during the Great Recession. Some undocumented immigrants already in the country went home. The dotard wants to increase the number of skilled immigrants so that they can compete with Americans for good-paying jobs.

They should crack down on employers more, I agree. The problem with the current laws are that employers are required to take identification documents they are presented with at face value. As long as the illegal immigrants has documents that could plausibly be legitimate, they can work. E-verify should be made mandatory and higher fines, as well as jail time, should be on the table for employers who use illegal labor. We should continue to go after the illegal immigrants themselves though. They certainly should feel just as comfortable living here as any other fugitive.

H1-B visas are being abused as well. The only answer there is to decrease the number of H1-B visas.

Oil rig jobs are popular among ex-felons for a reason. Whenever an industry hires a lot of felons, it's usually because they wouldn't have enough employees without them. Oil rig jobs pay very well, but the work is dirty, dangerous, and strenuous. Injury rates are high. Methamphetamine use is common among oil field workers. It's so bad that the substance abuse clients I had said they wouldn't go back because seeing people around them using would lead to relapse.

They hire ex-felons because there is an abundance of them and they cost less than people without felonies. The same job could be filled by non-felons if they raised wages. The solution to any labor shortage is to raise wages until they're high enough to incentivize more people to participate in the labor market. It's economics 101.

The reason the fruit was rotting on the vine when illegals left is because the value of that fruit was less than the wage employers would have paid to citizens to harvest the fruit. It's clearly unethical to cultivate a crop that is only feasible if illegal workers are available to harvest it. The economic and ethical argument you are making is the exact argument southern plantation owners used for slavery.

[sanantone]

There are ethical issues, which is why the government should crack down on greedy companies. They'd rather go after people looking for better lives, and it's an inefficient way of enforcing immigration laws. They wouldn't come here if businesses didn't hire them. That's why illegal entry into the country decreased during the Great Recession. Some undocumented immigrants already in the country went home. The dotard wants to increase the number of skilled immigrants so that they can compete with Americans for good-paying jobs.

They should crack down on employers more, I agree. The problem with the current laws are that employers are required to take identification documents they are presented with at face value. As long as the illegal immigrants has documents that could plausibly be legitimate, they can work. E-verify should be made mandatory and higher fines, as well as jail time, should be on the table for employers who use illegal labor. We should continue to go after the illegal immigrants themselves though. They certainly should feel just as comfortable living here as any other fugitive.

H1-B visas are being abused as well. The only answer there is to decrease the number of H1-B visas.

Oil rig jobs are popular among ex-felons for a reason. Whenever an industry hires a lot of felons, it's usually because they wouldn't have enough employees without them. Oil rig jobs pay very well, but the work is dirty, dangerous, and strenuous. Injury rates are high. Methamphetamine use is common among oil field workers. It's so bad that the substance abuse clients I had said they wouldn't go back because seeing people around them using would lead to relapse.

They hire ex-felons because there is an abundance of them and they cost less than people without felonies. The same job could be filled by non-felons if they raised wages. The solution to any labor shortage is to raise wages until they're high enough to incentivize more people to participate in the labor market. It's economics 101.

The reason the fruit was rotting on the vine when illegals left is because the value of that fruit was less than the wage employers would have paid to citizens to harvest the fruit. It's clearly unethical to cultivate a crop that is only feasible if illegal workers are available to harvest it. The economic and ethical argument you are making is the exact argument southern plantation owners used for slavery.

Ex-felons need to work just like anyone else, and these companies don't have a reason to not hire felons. It's not illegal. Ex-felons are a legal part of the applicant pool. If wages in a particular industry get too high, employers will hire people in other countries if it's feasible. For example, Mexico is close and has cheaper labor, so it makes business sense for Ford to move production down there.

[alexf.1990]

Ex-felons need to work just like anyone else, and these companies don't have a reason to not hire felons. It's not illegal. Ex-felons are a legal part of the applicant pool. If wages in a particular industry get too high, employers will hire people in other countries if it's feasible. For example, Mexico is close and has cheaper labor, so it makes business sense for Ford to move production down there.

I don't see how any of this is a defense against illegal immigration? It wasn't very long ago that labor unions were one of the strongest voices against flooding the labor market with cheap, unskilled labor. I can't see how the working class gets any benefit from illegal immigration. If anything, it seems to have been one of the biggest obstacles to higher wages. Raising the minimum wage above the market price will simply increase the amount of surplus labor (unemployment). The only way to meaningfully raise wages is to decrease the number of unskilled workers in the labor market.

[dfrecore]

I don't see how any of this is a defense against illegal immigration? It wasn't very long ago that labor unions were one of the strongest voices against flooding the labor market with cheap, unskilled labor. I can't see how the working class gets any benefit from illegal immigration. If anything, it seems to have been one of the biggest obstacles to higher wages. Raising the minimum wage above the market price will simply increase the amount of surplus labor (unemployment). The only way to meaningfully raise wages is to decrease the number of unskilled workers in the labor market.

Cesar Chavez himself was completely 100% against illegal immigration for these exact reasons, AND the fact that it took advantage of he illegals.  It's a lose-lose.