Bad Review for WGU: Dishonest, Incompetent, and Unreliable

[Merlin]

Regarding the CS program, would GPA matter for the job opportunities after graduating with the CS degree? I have heard some say that it only matters for some jobs where there is a GPA cutoff but only up to that point.

You don't even need a Computer Science degree to get a job at Google.

There is a guy that got a Math degree, had not done any coding whatsoever in school.  After he graduated he decided to try coding so he took a 3-month boot camp which he paid $17,000 for.  Within 6 months he got a job at Google.

Now he did graduate from an Ivey League school so that did probably help, but the point is worry about building your skills and you'll be fine.

The lack of a degree, a degree in non-CS discipline, and/or a degree from a non-elite school, are generally less stigmatized in the tech industry than in other industries. At least here in the SF Bay/Silicon Valley area. As a hiring manager, I know that I end to focus more on accomplishments and technical credentials (certifications) than degrees for the most part.

Heck, I've found that most of my best junior programmer hires over the years have been people who were self-taught rather than new grads with CS degrees. In my experience, the higher the academic degree the more people tend to overengineer. However, self-taught programmers tend to focus more on minimal solutions that get the job done without all the extra fluff. Sometimes they need to work on error checking and commenting, but they're efficient.

So, yeah, it is very possible to get a job at places like Google, Facebook, and Amazon without a degree at all. It'll help to have a referral to get your resume looked at, but you just need a strong resume and a portfolio of shipped products (and/or open-source contributions) to demonstrate you have the right skills to win an interview. After that, it comes down to how well you can think on your feet during the various interviews (usually this means multiple rounds of whiteboard coding and systems design interviews, along with at least one behavioral interview, and a management interview if you're looking for a lead role).

[scorpion]

Regarding the CS program, would GPA matter for the job opportunities after graduating with the CS degree? I have heard some say that it only matters for some jobs where there is a GPA cutoff but only up to that point.

If you're expected to discuss GPA, yes, you can get screwed. It depends more on the quality of the company and whether it's in the tech industry.

In tech, projects and demonstrated experience shipping software count for way more than your degree in the first place -- and at higher-tier companies, the leetcode grist mill.

The problem comes when you're trying to get internships or facing endless AHS applications after graduating. Better internship opportunities will be GPA-limited, and HR and employment screening (especially in non-tech industries) can force you to either leave a GPA off (putting you in the same bucket as everyone with a bad GPA), or substitute in WGU's handwaved B-equivalency numbers. Neither's a great option, and trying to pass off a pass/fail major "equivalent" to a 3.0 majors GPA can seriously limit your better opportunities.

Now he did graduate from an Ivey League school so that did probably help, but the point is worry about building your skills and you'll be fine.

So there's a couple things at play here: school/program recognition and requirements to get hired. Obviously anyone with a tier A degree at an Ivy can get an interview. Anything that's not tier A is effectively identical, as long as it's accredited and doesn't set off alarms.

The lack of a degree, a degree in non-CS discipline, and/or a degree from a non-elite school, are generally less stigmatized in the tech industry than in other industries. At least here in the SF Bay/Silicon Valley area. As a hiring manager, I know that I end to focus more on accomplishments and technical credentials (certifications) than degrees for the most part.
[...]
So, yeah, it is very possible to get a job at places like Google, Facebook, and Amazon without a degree at all. It'll help to have a referral to get your resume looked at, but you just need a strong resume and a portfolio of shipped products (and/or open-source contributions) to demonstrate you have the right skills to win an interview. After that, it comes down to how well you can think on your feet during the various interviews (usually this means multiple rounds of whiteboard coding and systems design interviews, along with at least one behavioral interview, and a management interview if you're looking for a lead role).

Yup, all good info.

This has very different implications for working at a big N vs. working at some regular company's dev department. Personal projects / demonstrable experience is great at getting your resume picked up. Having a degree from a tier A school is great at getting your resume picked up. But at a big N, having a relevant degree doesn't hurt, but it's even less important than it is elsewhere. Apply at modest tech companies or IT departments in non-tech industries, and you may need the degree since you're fighting with more old-school requirements and uninformed expectations.

But once it goes to interviews, you're at the mercy of the whiteboard. The more prestigious the company, the more you can expect to be grilled on your DS&A knowledge, with several rounds of Leetcode whiteboarding thrown in. Selective employers don't need to care about your degree (beyond the ability to gouge pay or boost their team prestige, respectively), so they can afford to put 100% of their effort into selecting against a very limited filter of domain knowledge.

[sciencemathematics1]

if you take courses at WGU rather than transfer them in from alt. ed. sources, then you will have a GPA. WGU lists a 3.0 GPA equivalency on their transcripts.

I have been told that graduate schools also look at the grades of the courses themselves that I took. Although WGU does give a 3.0 GPA I heard that the course credits themselves are still ungraded and will just be listed as pass/fail, and that graded courses are prefered over pass/fail. Is this true for all graduate schools?

While I don't have the most amazing academic resume, I do have a pretty spectacular professional resume and list of accomplishments in my field. I don't have much in the way of academic references, but I know and have worked professionally with several Ph.D. holders who would probably write me a letter of recommendation talking about my research qualifications, etc. if asked nicely.

Since I am also interested in PhD programs, what would you suggest that I do after I get my bachelor's degree in order to increase my chances of getting into a PhD program and obtain the kind of background that I need to apply to such a program?

Plus I'm mostly interested in part-time distance-learning programs and I won't need a full-ride scholarship/fellowship

I have done research on distance-learning programs, and have found the following CS PhD programs (6 total)

https://distance.mst.edu/distance-progra...r-science/
https://computing.nova.edu/doctoral/cisd/index.html

https://www.ncu.edu/programs-degrees/doc...ience#gref
https://www.coloradotech.edu/degrees/doc...ce/general
https://www.aspen.edu/business-technolog...r-science/

U. South Carolina
https://www.sc.edu/study/colleges_school.../index.php
CS PhD listed here as part of online options
https://www.sc.edu/study/academic_overvi.../index.php


Have you found any programs additional to these that I can add to my list? Are you thinking particularly of certain programs at this point?

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If you're expected to discuss GPA, yes, you can get screwed. It depends more on the quality of the company and whether it's in the tech industry.

The problem comes when you're trying to get internships or facing endless AHS applications after graduating. Better internship opportunities will be GPA-limited, and HR and employment screening (especially in non-tech industries) can force you to either leave a GPA off (putting you in the same bucket as everyone with a bad GPA), or substitute in WGU's handwaved B-equivalency numbers. Neither's a great option, and trying to pass off a pass/fail major "equivalent" to a 3.0 majors GPA can seriously limit your better opportunities.

If I had study.com computer science credits instead of WGU's would I be able to have a higher GPA?

[Merlin]

I have been told that graduate schools also look at the grades of the courses themselves that I took. Although WGU does give a 3.0 GPA I heard that the course credits themselves are still ungraded and will just be listed as pass/fail, and that graded courses are prefered over pass/fail. Is this true for all graduate schools?

The WGU transcripts have 5 possible marks for each class: Pass, Not Passed, Requirement Satisfied, Transfer, or Withdrawn. It specifically states that any course that is marked as Pass should be assessed with a grade equivalent to B or higher (3.0 or higher in a 4.0 scale). Ultimately it is up to the destination college as to what they will accept and won't accept, but the transcript suggests each WGU course carries a grade no less than a B (3.0) and it could be treated as high as an A depending on how generous the intake school is. It is best to assume the minimum of 3.0 to be safe though. We know that schools that require a minimum undergrad GPA of 3.5 have admitted WGU students though, so your mileage may vary.

When people talk about how graded courses are preferred over pass/fail courses on this forum, what they usually mean to say is that regionally accredited courses are preferred over alternative credit courses. This means that if you're taking courses that are prerequisites for a graduate program, or that are considered part of the degree core for a degree that is required to meet admissions requirements, you want to make sure that as many of those courses are from a RA college rather than from alt. credit providers like Straighterline or Study.com.

The pass or fail nature of a course is less important than whether the school will accept the course at all. Many (most?) grad schools don't recognize ACE credits at all. If their school does, they probably only recognize a small number of courses (CLEP mainly). So if you're using alt. credit options to meet those requirements, you may be denied admission based on that, not because the courses are pass/fail. There are some big-name schools out there (Brown University for example) that use a pass/fail grading system. Their students are not denied entry to grad programs on that basis.

A lot of colleges are considering moving to pass/fail grading systems during the pandemic, so it may be common for more people soon.

Since I am also interested in PhD programs, what would you suggest that I do after I get my bachelor's degree in order to increase my chances of getting into a PhD program and obtain the kind of background that I need to apply to such a program?

The best thing to do is to figure out what grad school you want to get into, then work backward from there to figure out what you need to have the best chance of entry. So if you find that you need to have a specific degree, then you want to make sure you get that degree. If the school has specific pre-requisite courses, you want to make sure you take those courses. While doing so, try to maximize the number of core or pre-requisite courses that come from a RA college or university. If you need a certain number of academic recommendations, look for those while taking the RA courses. If you need research experience, try to find courses that have research-focused labs, etc. while taking those RA courses.

As a blanket rule, I'd suggest that for people who are serious about getting into a good grad school, they should only consider alt. credit options for their GenEd requirements (the first 60 credits of a traditional bachelor's degree). Everything else (the latter 60 credits) should come from an RA college or university.

Have you found any programs additional to these that I can add to my list? Are you thinking particularly of certain programs at this point?

Most recently I have been looking at UK schools. I'm pretty sure if I end up doing a Ph.D., it will be a UK program. But there are a few US schools on my list as well. The US schools on my list are mostly business schools though (for my backup of doing a DBA or Ph.D. in Leadership) since the bulk of US universities only want full-time Ph.D. students.

If I were to consider full-time programs, I'd probably look at more US options (local ones anyway) so I could earn grants, fellowships, or assistantships to cover a portion of my financial costs.

If I had study.com computer science credits instead of WGU's would I be able to have a higher GPA?

You get no GPA at all from alt. credit providers. Those come in as "requirement met" rather than "transfer" and are generally not included when calculating GPA at most schools. Both because they are non-credit courses, and because they are not issued by RA colleges.

If you need a GPA, you are better off getting your credits from WGU than to get them from a non-accredited credit provider like Straighterline or Study.com. Those credits are amazing deals if you're just looking to complete a degree and don't care about getting into a competitive grad school. But for people who aim to pursue graduate degrees, they are better off limiting the number of non-traditional courses. This is actually one of the reasons I am considering going back to get a second bachelor's degree, so I can earn RA credits.

That said, I have heard rumors that SL and SDC credits show grades on the WGU transcript now, so it could theoretically boost your overall GPA by having them. I don't think a grad school would be fooled though.

[scorpion]

If I had study.com computer science credits instead of WGU's would I be able to have a higher GPA?

Well, not really. Neither one will impact your GPA. The only exception I'm aware of is COSC and similar schools that place letter grades from Study.com on their transcript.

The school you're going to must accept your Study.com courses for transfer, which can be difficult in graduate programs. Study.com is not a college, it doesn't award credit. Instead, its courses are reviewed by a third party, American Council on Education (ACE), and recommended for awarding credit at colleges. Colleges have no obligation to follow ACE's recommendations, so a college that doesn't recognize ACE would evaluate Study.com courses as any other kind of non-RA learning -- which usually doesn't lead to the award of the credit you'd like.

WGU is a university and awards RA college credits. They use a non-standard grading scheme which is pass/fail only, and will also not impact your total GPA. This can put you in a situation where a graduate program doesn't have enough graded RA credits to use for calculating a GPA in order to meet admission or program requirements.

[Merlin]

WGU is a university and awards RA college credits. They use a non-standard grading scheme which is pass/fail only, and will also not impact your total GPA. This can put you in a situation where a graduate program doesn't have enough graded RA credits to use for calculating a GPA in order to meet admission or program requirements.

That could be a bit of a misleading statement since it depends greatly on the destination college and where the balance of credits were taken if they didn't all originate from WGU.

While it is true that WGU doesn't award a letter grade for each course, the WGU transcript does provide a letter grade equivalence. This equivalence means courses taken at WGU will translate to at least a 3.0 GPA and may be accepted as higher depending on the destination school. There is no requirement that the destination school honor that equivalence, but in practice most, if not all, RA colleges will. So WGU credits will usually contribute to a transfer GPA at schools that calculate one. This can be seen from looking at the list of destination colleges that have accepted WGU graduates into their grad programs; that list includes some highly competitive schools with high GPA entry requirements.

In any case, luckily GPA and entrance exam scores are usually weighted lower than things like recommendations, the statement of purpose/personal statement, academic achievements, and CV according to graduate application reviewers. So even if a school looks at the WGU GPA in the lowest light, its courses are still considered valid to meet entrance requirements and any GPA deficit can be balanced in other areas.

On the other hand, there is no way to offset the negatives of non-accredited courses. Particularly if those courses are core to a required degree or prerequisite courses to meet entrance requirements. This makes it harder for degrees from TESU to offer the same value to people who are seeking to pursue graduate degrees... particularly for those of us who are part of the 114 credit club.

The key takeaway is that if you want to get into a good grad school, you need to make sure at least half (the core and upper-division) of your credits are from an actual RA college or university and not from alt. credit providers. Ideally, you want graded credits to simplify things, but as long as you earn credits that come with a grade equivalency like with WGU, you should be fine.

[scorpion]

While it is true that WGU doesn't award a letter grade for each course, the WGU transcript does provide a letter grade equivalence.

You're conflating the academic transcript with the ROAT. The academic transcript lists pass/fail only and is what you'll be sending to a transferring institution.

This equivalence means courses taken at WGU will translate to at least a 3.0 GPA and may be accepted as higher depending on the destination school. There is no requirement that the destination school honor that equivalence, but in practice most, if not all, RA colleges will. So WGU credits will usually contribute to a transfer GPA at schools that calculate one. This can be seen from looking at the list of destination colleges that have accepted WGU graduates into their grad programs; that list includes some highly competitive schools with high GPA entry requirements.

Receiving institutions will accept WGU courses as RA credit, but they're under no obligation to follow WGU's self-professed standards for grade equivalencies. It would be a nice trick if a RA school could keep accreditation by issuing P/Fs and still force receiving institutions to treat them like "A"s.

Adding a big [citation needed] to the claim that WGU credits will be counted for GPA purposes. A quick browse through /r/wgu will show plenty of rejections from graduate programs due to low GPA, and removeddit/ceddit will show plenty more that have been scrubbed by the mods.

And claiming that based on a destination college list is, frankly, spun out of whole cloth. WGU graduates that also went on to selective graduate programs tells us nothing about WGU's role in that, since they could just as easily have prior or future college work that factored into it; you're saying that the grades don't matter because of holistic admissions processes on one hand, and on the other, trying to use the admission to holistic programs as justification that the grades do matter!

So even if a school looks at the WGU GPA in the lowest light, its courses are still considered valid to meet entrance requirements and any GPA deficit can be balanced in other areas.

This is not correct. Many programs have fairly ironclad tracks for course prerequisites, letter grades included. The Pitt CS program and UT Austin CS admissions come to mind. Attempting these with only WGU credits would fail to meet the GPA requirements and fail to meet the letter grade requirements (CR are not counted as satisfactory). Could you appeal it? Sure, maybe, but that applies to any student who doesn't meet a program's requirements.

[Merlin]

The academic transcript lists pass/fail only and is what you'll be sending to a transferring institution.

Receiving institutions will accept WGU courses as RA credit, but they're under no obligation to follow WGU's self-professed standards for grade equivalencies

I am not disagreeing with you that schools are under no obligation to honor the WGU transfer equivalencies. I indicated as much in my post.

Technically, colleges are not required to honor the self-professed letter grades awarded by any other school. In fact, many schools consider all incoming transfer credits as pass/fail by default. The only place where grades matter is when a school calculates a transfer GPA for entrance requirements. There is no agreement between schools for how this is done, so each college calculates transfer GPA according to their own rules. Obviously, most schools will take the letter grades assigned by schools at face value, but in doing so they are following the recommendations of the originating school on how to evaluate those credits. Logically, it is not really that much different than following the WGU recommendations on how to evaluate their credits.

Based on evidence from graduate experiences, it seems that most schools will follow the WGU guidelines for transfer GPA equivalence. Obviously not every college will do so, but those appear to be the exception rather than the rule. I have seen the same posts about claims to have been denied entry to grad programs based on the P/F nature of the WGU degrees, but we don't always know the full picture there. My guess is that they had a weak overall admissions application package. Admissions evaluators understand that not every school posts letter grades, so that is unlikely to be the sole factor for a declined admission. Either way, if you can't get into one school, find another school or appeal the decision. There are plenty of other options.

In any case, my intention isn't to suggest that WGU is perfect, or even that it should be a first-choice option for people who are looking to get into a top-tier graduate program. For people who are, this is probably the wrong place to be since alt. education is not the right path. Their chances will be vastly improved by attending a traditional college and pushing for top marks. But that really isn't the demographic for people on this forum. People here are mostly adult learners who are coming back for a degree later in life and they are looking to leverage their existing knowledge to complete a degree as quickly as possible using alternative education options. Most have no aspirations for graduate school or anything beyond getting a checkbox degree for a job promotion or career change. It is my personal opinion that for people who are interested in accelerating their degree path, but still want to pursue a graduate degree later on, WGU is a better option than TESU or one of the other Big 3 colleges as it offers a better chance of getting into a good grad school while keeping the price point low.

Also, to be clear, I am not a fan of the WGU grading system... it doesn't do students any favors. There is no reason for it since support exists for grades. Exams are already scored on a percentile basis by default, and PAs are evaluated according to a rubric that can be translated to grades easily. I suspect it is done to maximize their graduation rates. But it is what it is.

[sciencemathematics1]

Most recently I have been looking at UK schools. I'm pretty sure if I end up doing a Ph.D., it will be a UK program. 

Do you have any links to any UK schools offering online PhD computer science programs or resources where I could find such programs? I am looking for such programs and would consider applying to such schools.

[sciencemathematics1]

What about this person who got accepted into an MIT MBA program? It is impressive that they got into a masters program with a WGU degree to a top school.
https://www.wgu.edu/blog/wgu-it-grad-mit...e2005.html

“During the admissions process, there was an openness with regard to the WGU competency-model,” he added. 

This seems to be an example that shows it is definitely possible to go to a good program with a WGU degree.